However, I just did a demo of Teach Your Children (see link at bottom for a listen), a song that has the classic country ending tag where a 2nd note (combined with a 5th) is pulled to a 3rd. When working up the demo, I found that the 3rd, played in ET, and sustained over the closing chord from the rhythm section, sounded awful. Believe it or not, this rank amateur found himself doing a bar slant on that last pull to flat the 3rd from ET to something closer to JI to make it sound better (just for that closing lick).

That made me think (a rare event). We all have to play by ear to get the bar in the right place in band or session work. Occasionally, a 3rd note will need to be played on its own, and I'm wondering if we subconsciously push the lone 3rd down into JI (even if the guitar is tuned in ET) because it "sounds right". For ET people like me, if I then pick other notes in the same chord, they're flat. That may be one of the battles I face (and maybe other ET tuning folks do as well) in keeping good intonation.

Any thoughts?

Here's that TYC demo:

http://www.rahul.net/thinker/audio/mp3/Teach_demo.mp3

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Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?

.....just like steel guitar players!

I have experienced the same type of problem as you. What I did was to record a Band in a Box background rhythm and supply the melody via my steel while being tuned to JI. When I played back the recording I was shocked by how horrible and out of tune I sounded. What stood out the most on the E9th neck was the E pull to F note and B pull to C# note. So to keep the beats somewhat under control with JI and still bring the flatted notes up to correct pitch with the rhythm track I experimented with a hybrid tuning.

What I did was to re-tune my E to F note from 434 hertz up to 438. Then I retuned all the strings two hertz sharp. What a difference this made, it put me in tune and I was still able to enjoy the beat-less combinations JI provides. My change using the A pedal and E to F lever even sounds acceptable. My new F even sounds good with G#.

I also recorded my C6th tuned to JI and after tuning up all the strings two hertz sharp it was brought right in with the band.

My hybrid tuning idea was based on the fact that if a note is flat it really shines but if a note is sharp it is easily hid. So even though I have strings that are tuned to 438 JI after pulling all the strings two hertz sharp I bring them into 440 ET plus the strings that are tuned to 440 being pulled to 442 are not noticed. So there it is -- in tune and beat-less.

I’m happy -- it works -- and I get to reap the benefits of both tunings.

The net result is IF a piano is stretch tuned across all octaves, it WILL sound straight 440 across all octaves. Even though on the meter each octave below and avove middle C has been shifted slightly away from 440.

Note: when we or a tuner says 440, it does NOT apply to the frequency. It applies to the relative pitch where the note A is used as a reference tuned to exactly 440HZ.

As to the author's observations, what you discovered is the beginning of the dilemma; ever since our 12 note semitone system came into being. The battle both physical and aural over ET versus JI will never end.

Volumes and volumes have been written about it. The problem is NOT in the music or the arithimetic behind it. It is simply that many ears do NOT want to hear beats between certain intervals. YET, even here, certain intervals WILL sound good to those of us who tune JI, if we tune them to ET. An example is strings 5, 6 and 9 when we play a 7th chord.

The enterval between 5 and 6 sounds better to us JI'rs if they are beatless. But IF you tune 5 and 9 beatless, the 7th chord does NOT have the "tension" that give a dominant its flavor. So on our E9th tuning MOST players who tune JI tune the 9th string very close to ET.

One more example is on the C neck and pedal 5. IF you tune the 5th string (F#) to JI with the 4th string, the resulting 9th chord (2, 3 and 5) does not have that flavor. So again most JI'rs tune the 5th string change very close to ET if not dead on ET.

The same goes for the Eb on string 6 with pedal 6. If you tune it beatless for that rich C minor chord, the resultant F7th (3, 4 and 6) chord will not sound right to most ears. EVEN for JI'rs.

So the battle marches on and it will never change. I believe with all my heart and soul we JI'rs are dead wrong and we are simply trying to prove a square peg WILL fit perfectly into a round hole.

But JI sounds better to my ears, so me "gwinah" tune JI. Cus me don' care what momma don' louw, I'll tune my Git' tar ANY how!!

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 04 March 2004 at 09:38 AM.]

If I tune my 3rd string in tune with the tuner, and the b pedal pull is in tune with the tuner, the A+F combination will leave the 3rd string flat. So, I just kind of split the difference, and leave it so that the AF 3rd string tone is less flat, but the no pedals 3rd string tone is a hair sharp. I sort of go through the list of compromises for all the pull combinations I actually use.

This is not a question of JI or ET or whatever. I use a tuner, because I'm LAZY when I set up to rehearse, and can't always get time in the room to go through working out beats. I remember the first lesson I took, after reading stuff on the forum for a while, and when we got to tuning I grinningly asked "So, is this about Just Intonation versus Equal Temperament?" "I got a slightly withering look and the answer: "No. This is about playing in tune. Don't pay too much attention to that stuff." Truer words were never spoken

Long story short: sour intervals in a tuning come from the physical characteristics of the instrument (flex of cabinet, flex of changer axle), regardless of how you tune theoretically... you still have to fit in to your instruments qualities and limitations. Sorry to run on like this.

If you're playing the third by itself, couldn't you just shade the bar a little sharp??

[This message was edited by Nicholas Dedring on 04 March 2004 at 10:45 AM.]

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

quote:

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"If I tune my 3rd string in tune with the tuner, and the b pedal pull is in tune with the tuner, the A+F combination will leave the 3rd string flat."

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Unless your tuner is calibrated away from ET (for personal preference), your third string and your B pedal pull to C# will be very sharp of JI, IF you tune them to the meter.

You are correct about cabinet drop causing problems. IE, on MOST PSG's, if one simply engages the A pedal and notices the meter while picking the 6th string, it will drop in pitch. In some cases, like on a LeGrande II, it will drop about 5-7 cents or so. The same thing happens on the 4th string (lessor drop) when one engages either the A or B pedal; or both.

However, EVEN if there was NO cabinet drop or any flexing, there would still be some serious problems, IF one wished to tune beatless (JI) across the board.

The most classic and proovable scenario is strings 1 and 7 when a player wishes to have NO beats between any intervals.

In a word, it cannot be done; UNLESS some form of "compensation" is used such as lowering of the F#'s when the pedals are down versus up. Or slanting the bar. But bar slants will not work in many multiple noted chords.

This phenomena IS due to the "between a rock and a hard place" situation when any player wishes to tune straight JI (beatless). Whereas IF a player tunes straight up (440 ref) All intervals regardless of pedals used (assuming no cabinet drop etc.) are "IN" tune with the meter.

The problem here is; there WILL be beats between ANY interval IF one tunes ET (straight 440), and because of the unique "overtones" of the PSG, MOST steel players cannot stand those beats

I try to make myself as happy with compromises as possible, then I note where everything falls on the meter so that I can find it quickly in a noisy space, especially in a rush. It stinks switching to new string gauges, as I just did, and going that day to rehearse, I finally just told the guys there what the issue was, and that it wasn't worth fixing in the limited time we had. Next time, I figure I'll be happy with it... I find that if I tune pulls just on their own, it's next to useless... but that some pulls have to be compromised to keep them halfway reasonable in conjunction with others... i.e.: A pedal has to balance out between use alone, with A&B, and with A&F. The other strings also need to be able to ably withstand those different situations... B&D have to also get along with each other, the surrounding strings, but also in each of their other uses. I just try to find something manageable, satisfying to my ear, and easy to find to my lazy self come the times where it matters.

But different strokes, obviously this works for MANY steel players, so who do I think I am anyway

quote:

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JI is ridiculous if you want to play in all the keys...

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And it's even worse on the C6 neck when you start playing fatter voicings with that 4th pick!

[This message was edited by John McGann on 04 March 2004 at 02:39 PM.]

Really.

End of topic, again and again and again!

[This message was edited by Dave Horch on 04 March 2004 at 08:56 PM.]

Personally, It sure would make things alot easier for me if I could tune everything straight up 440 in this critical working condition.

I am sure I am not the only one of the above mentioned players who has tried tuning straight up and abandoned that concept.

A couple of years ago when all of this tuning debate started, trying to keep an open mind, I decided, once again, to experiment by tuning straight up 440 on all of my overdubs. I did this for a couple of weeks. It never failed, every producer after playing along with the track, asked me to check my tuning. After I retuned to JI and played along with it I got the thumbs up. Sure, I could have compensated using the bar to make it work. But if compensation has to be used as it does from time to time with JI then I prefer having the guitar tuned to where it is pleasant sounding to the ear which is why Carl can not go there as well, even though he truly believes it is the right way to tune. I do not share that belief.....which is why how we tune comes down to preference because NO single way is closer to sounding in tune with the piano. Only the day when steels are made with adjustable bridges will this become possible. Until then, tuning will always be a debate over preferences, not fact.

Also I have been told that electronic pianos and synths are tuned the same way as the acoustic piano. They come pretuned from the factory this way. Otherwise, they would sound out of tuned to the acoustic piano.

....Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 05 March 2004 at 06:26 AM.]

1) when tuning to JI in one key, do you retune strings and pulls for another tune in another key- that is, if you happen to be using open strings in combination with the bar in each tune? In other words, wouldn't the JI tuning vary from key to key?

2) I've read there are a bunch of approaches for piano tuning, depending on the style of music. Is there a standard method used in the Nashville studios, so that you know in advance what to shoot for in terms of JI?

3) should I just get a realtor's license?

quote:

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Also I have been told that electronic pianos and synths are tuned the same way as the acoustic piano. They come pretuned from the factory this way. Otherwise, they would sound out of tuned to the acoustic piano.

---

I too would have to question this. I have all the love and admiration for Paul in the world. But I believe his source may be mistaken. As I stated earlier, acoustic pianos are stretched tuned of course, but NOT so they approach any where near JI.

There is a mechanical situation involved with pianos that most stringed instruments do not have and that is; the length of the strings are NOT constant. Because of this anaomoly, IF they tune each octave above and below middle C to straight 440 ref, each octave notes below middle C will sound ever more sharp and each octave notes above middle C will sound ever more flat.

NOTE: not because their pitch is sharp or flat of 440, rather in human sound perception. Again, this is due to the length of the strings being ever longer (or shorter).

An electronic piano does not have this mechanical problem. Therefore I am almost positive, electronic pianos are tuned dead on ET (440 ref) across all octaves from the factory.

If I am incorrect, as always I respectfully stand corrected.

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Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?

I just put the meter on my Roland Synth, and it is definitely stretched tuned. The bottom C on the keyboard reads 10 cents flat, and the top C on the keyboard reads 20 cents sharp. Middle C reads 5 cents sharp.

Not only is the piano voice stretch tuned, but most of the other voices are also.

But back to the JI/ET thing. I have a friend who has a LeGrande III (Lucky devil!) and he tunes 440 ET and it sounds great. I do that with my Cougar and its awful. The difference I think is the 'cabinet drop'. Its not possible to actually tune ET if there is any substantial amount of cabinet drop. Although the individual strings are tuned ET, as soon as you do any pedal pulls, the other strings are no longer ET. So I tune JI, and compensate each pedal combination or chord form by shifting my bar away from the fret marker... usually above.

Bill

Cabinet drop can interfere with JI, just not in the same way as with ET.

More advanced electronic keyboards not only do the stretch thing, they give you some other tuning options for alternatives to straight ET.

It's possible on most modern pedal steels to add some compensating (less than half-step) changes to help with some of the major problems, like the A pedal and F lever problem. The straight major chord positions on E9 need the most careful JI tuning. The more dissonant chords (less used on E9) and most of the C6 (or B6) neck chords work better closer to ET.

If you are not using a chord open at the nut, then your tuning will be essentially the same anywhere in the usable range of the neck (that is, in other keys), if you are using the same strings and pedals/knees, because you are using the bar as a movable capo. Depending on your bar pressure, there may be slight differences between your tuning at frets at or near the nut and chords at frets near the middle of the neck. It can help this problem to do the final tweaking of your tuning with the bar at a fret near the center of your typical playing area, say the C or D fret on E9 (you are now fretless and so it may be easier to do this with your ears than a tuner).

I'm still learning, but these are some things I have discovered (many from the kind advice of my betters here on the Forum).

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 05 March 2004 at 11:40 AM.]

BTW: Bill, all the steel players that I know that get the bulk of major recording work in LA, Texas and NYC us JI also.

John, I don't know what Paul does but when I want to use open strings in a critical recording situation I sometimes need to tweak the notes a bit.

I'm not changing my habit of tuning every change and every string to absolute dead on zero. I won't, I wouldn't know where to start.

It was luckily developed in total ignorance.

In fairness to myself, I believe all my "local peers", from Ray Montee, to Larry Behm, DJ, and others will tell you that one of my strong "suits", is playing in tune. ( unless they're all bullshitting me...)

OK. Here it is:

As I mentioned before in a long forgotten Bill Hankey "Fishtailing Bar" thread, the brain is the most advanced computer there is. WHen the left hand is allowed to work in sync with it, it can and DOES make the corrections necessary to play "in tune". I dunno how it does this, but in my case, it has been a process of a quarter century of hitting that chord three frets up with the Es raised, and the A pedal, and knowing how to make it be "in tune". Right now I couldn't tell you how I do it, or which, if any slants I make. If I thought of it, I couldn't make them. The same holds for ALL of the other combinations I'm used to using a hundred times a night in the last couple thousand gigs.

I know this to be the case, because when I take time to "bone up" on fretted guitar, my intonation suffers measurably. IOW, it "disturbs" the "connection". I have long ago realised that I had to "choose one or the other" to be "serious about".

Now. That said, here is a major part of my "theorum":

I have MANY recordings of BE, BC, BS, PF, JH, and all the "standards" where they are "dead on".

Problem is, they're not.

I'm not saying this lightly, because I know the readership of this forum as well as this thread. More people than I have "too much time on their hands".

I came across this when slowing down Brad Paisley recordings of faster than light Mike J, licks. I also did it with Mr F's and E's recordings.

They sound PERFECTLY in tune on the record, but at 10 % speed they are not. Not all the notes. Only the MAIN notes and phrases.

Anybody catch the later internet email making the rounds where it is pointed out that in reading, only the first and last letter, and the number of letters must be correct? You don't have to sit and decipher them, you just basicaly read it.

Wlel, terhe's a smiliar thnig or rahetr the smae thnig at wrok hree msluiclay.

Only the first and last notes, and the main chord tones, the root and fifth, mainly need to be "perfect". Thirds being slid from or at a "slight minor" aren't even noticed, any more than the third being slightly "sussed". Nor are the fifths when slightly moved toward augmentation. Maybe things like slight flattening of the fifths, or raising of the sixths are more 'offensive'. I dunno. I'd just have to say that the tonic at the very least has to be "dead on".

As reported, MANY a "pro's" guitar has been sat behind after a "perfect set", and found to be "way out".

I don't pretend to be in among "pros", but as someone that tunes dead on to a korg, or other "off the rack" tuner, and plays successfully "in tune", I tend to think my 'theorum' has some merit.

The "Tone Center" has got to be not just in your ear, but between your ears and connected through your heart to your hands.

I might too, add that I do play an occaisonal gig with an ET Electronic Piano, as on the 12-13 of Mar, and I DO notice some things that "sound out".

Also that there ARE guitar players locally that I have played with that couldn't play in tune if their lives depended on it, if they had Leo Fender set their bridges and necks, on their brand new USA Teles, and a couple that play PERFECTLY in tune with old ragged Squiers.

If this doesn't make any sense to you, don't worry about it.

It barely does to me.

It is the only way I can explain a very complicated problem I've been called apon to 'splain to people from time to time.

It's if anything a pointing toward trust in the fantastic machine that God, as referenced my friend Carl, b0b, Mr F, E, BS, MA, myself, and many others refer to as so generously endowing us with: Our minds/bodies.

Man made, and devised "tuners" or "JI tuning charts" are only going to get you as close as God lets you get anyhow.

Some of the BEST players like Richard Edge, Buddy C (the times I saw and heard him at gigs or at my sessions with him) Don West and others tune one or two notes off'n a piano, and do the others "by ear".

Anyhow, thanks for the indulgence. Sometimes the simplest things are the hardest, the easiest, the most complex.

I suppose there's The Muse.....

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 06 March 2004 at 12:19 AM.]

John....No, is the answer to retuning for various keys when chosing JI. Center of pitch changes after you leave the first fret no matter how you slice it. This is another reason why the 442 thing has come into prominence for a reference to the center of pitch when tuning to pianos and guitars for either method.

Carl,

Have you had a chance to confirm your electronic keyboard tuning question? My Peavey synth is stretched and so are all of my keyboard midi samples in my Pro Tool system.....I also talked to a couple of keyboard wizards after I posted yesterday. They confirmed it as being correct and added that the wurlitzer, Rhodes, and B3's are also stretched tuned. Stretch tuning is ET. Stretching it does not bring it closer to JI. If I understood your implication then you were implying just the opposite. Is that what you meant?

To all, Tune your open G# to A to match the middle A 440 on the piano. Now place the bar perfectly over the twelfth fret on that same string and hit the next A an octave up on the piano.....The conclusion is that the steel is now flat at the twelfth fret to the pianos next A note because the piano is a tempered instrument and the steel is not. We have a fixed bridge which prevents tempering to happen up the neck on each individual string.

When each instrument is played matching octave notes the steel gets farther out of tune as notes progress to the end of the fret board. By testing the tuning between the keyboard and steel this way using only one string the tuning debate doesn't matter.

An adjustible bridge is the only thing that could solve the true tuning problems inherent in steel guitars because of its fixed bridge.....Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 06 March 2004 at 05:44 AM.]

I would imagine they are indeed "tuning out the beats".

This does, as mentioned make some of the intervals "out of tune", and what I was saying was that the differences are seemingly "automatically" adjusted for. Ala the wonder of the brain.

I find myself doing this all the time, and I tune everything to zero. Only in the open positions do I find it awkward in the least.

I REALLY enjoyed your speed picking CDs this last summer, and found myself to be very "in tune" with them regardless of the differences once out of the "open position". Slow or fast.

This further showed me that adjusting "on the fly" is something we automatically do. Probably paying more attention to 'key notes" than others that are "passing".

Time to get up and "plug it in". I've got a bunch of stuff to fool with today, and I'm gonna try a couple tuning things.

Like I said, it's sheer dumbness that's kept me from tuning any other way for 25 years, and has probably just shown me how automatic accurate, in-tune, bar placement is.

Thanks

EJL

quote:

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this rank amateur found himself doing a bar slant

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I have not had a chance to check it. In the meantime I will go with what you are saying because of my deep respect for you. I will only state that over many years and reading much on the subject of "stretch tuning" on pianos, that it was a due to a mechanical limitation not inherrent in electronic pianos. But again, I stand corrected respectfully, if my understanding is wrong.

carl

I also respect your opinions. I do wish at some point you will not just take my word for it and check it out.....

God bless,

And on another note, I miss your emails....Hope all is well...Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 06 March 2004 at 09:52 AM.]

Overtones are created be the vibrating string breaking up into what are called "ventral segments." The higher the overtone of each string, the smaller the string segments that create the overtone. The smaller the string segments, the more the string's thickness/stiffness sharpens the overtone from what it would be if theoretically accurate.

Inharmonicity, and how it factors into how a piano is tuned, has been discussed here in-depth before.

In a nutshell: Since the overtones of notes in the center section are what primarily determine how well the center section of a piano matches with notes higher or lower on the keyboard, the higher section is tuned sharp and the bass section flat, if you judge this by how the fundamental frequencies of the notes match with an electronic device.

This is not done because of a property inherent in the equal-tempered tuning system itself, but rather because of "inharmonicity," the increasing inability of a physical string to produce overtones that are mathematically accurate, the further up the overtone series one goes on each individual string.

Also, tuners vary in their personal preference of how much "stretching" is needed. Part of this may be due to a tendency noted by some for the human ear to hear higher pitches flat of what they truly are.

On a personal note: Even though I tune pianos and play electric guitar, I do not prefer Equal Temperament on pedal steel guitar; either on E9 or C6. Paul's comments on the subject of how top Nashville pros tune (as expressed sometime ago, in a way very similar to the above) were a major incentive in why I decided to stick with what seems natural to me.

I have noticed that when playing with a big group ET is not as harsh sounding as when I play alone. But even in a group, my part sounds better JI when it's a prominent upfront part.

Jim Cohen related an interesting experience in a previous post on this topic. He was recording something with a piano, and he tuned ET to match it. But everyone agreed that it sounded better when the steel was tuned JI, although no one knew why. My guess is that our ears and brains can handle slight mismatches between instruments, but we want to hear each instrument well in tune with itself. Jim's ear-hand coordination probably minimized the mismatch with the piano; but always having the ET thirds sound sharp within the steel chords apparently didn't sound as good as having the steel tuned JI within itself.