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Author
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Topic: s-10s versus sd-10s?
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Bill Miller
Member From: Gaspé, Québec, Canada
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posted 10 March 2004 05:47 AM
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I do a lot of thinking about buying another guitar and I generally anticipate buying a single 10 string on a double frame with a pad. The thing is, I'm not sure why except that they seem to be more popular than S-10s these days. I'm aware that the double frame leaves open the possibility of adding another neck but how many people really do that? It seems to me it must be a pretty small number and in my case it wouldn't be an issue because I started late in life playing E9...I won't be taking up C6.
So my question is: Apart from the advantage I mention...ability to add another neck...what are the advantages of buying an SD-10 guitar rather than a simple S-10? Or disadvantages for that matter. (more weight and extra cost obviously) Does the extra mass give more sustain? Better tone? I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 10 March 2004 06:04 AM
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There are various theories on this: 1. More mass means greater sustain. 2. If feels more comfortable to have a Double body with a pad. 3. A more efficient way to intall knee levers. IE, too cramped on a Single 10. I share the latter 2 beliefs. I know of no one who has bought a single 10 on a double body that did it because they "might turn it into a Double 10 later". I have heard a few say "it looks better". This of course is probably the most subjective of all. As to item 1. I would be highly skeptical of this one. Sound claims are rarely consistent amongst players. I doubt seriously if it would ever survive a triple blind test. carl |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 10 March 2004 06:04 AM
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Adding an extra neck is not cost effective.
I don't know of anyone who ever did it.I'm more comfortable sitting behind a D10 than an S10, so an SD10 feels right. More room for KL placement is an advantage. Another advantage to me is I have a great flight case for my D10. If I decide to take my SD10 fits it the same case.
[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 10 March 2004 at 06:46 AM.] |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 10 March 2004 06:30 AM
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I share Carl's skeptism about tone or sustain being much different for single versus double bodies. Many people claim this, but it seems to be mostly subjective cliams. None other than the Forum's own b0b has claimed that single bodies sound better. I would only believe a well controled blind test, and would expect any difference to be extremely subtle.For me, the arm rest gets in the way and slows me down. I can't imagine a piano player, or even a lap steel player wanting an arm rest between them and the instrument. To me it seems like an invitation to bad form and bad habits; and it adds unnecessary weight to the instrument. Knee lever crowding is only a problem with single necks that are built too narrow. This would potentially be a bigger problem with universals, because of the need for levers for both E9 and B6 mode. But Fessenden, Zum and many other makers of universals add a little extra body width on single necks to deal with this problem. I am not aware of anyone ever complaining about lack of space for the C6 knee levers on the inside neck of a double-neck. But the remedy would be the same, namely that modern pedal steels, whether single or double necks, need ample body width for the many knee levers modern pedal steel players like to have. Such adequate space could be built into either a single or a double-neck body (which is not to say that all manufacturers do that). |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 10 March 2004 06:45 AM
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Looks like Carl and I were posting the same thoughts, at the same time.The only difference is he comented on the difference in sound, I didn't. I totally agree with what he said about it.
In theory it should be better, but I don't hear it. |
Erv Niehaus
Member From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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posted 10 March 2004 07:09 AM
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The reason for a lot of the SD-10 guitars out there is because on quite a few of the older guitars, the C6th guts were removed, a pad was added and they were turned into a SD-10. On the old Sho~Buds, if it started out as a SD-10, there won't be a cut out for the changer on the right end. If there is a cutout, that guitar was originally a D-10.
That is not true with Emmons, however. I ordered a new Emmons "Loafer" from Ron a few years ago and there is a cutout for a changer where the C6th neck would go.
Erv |
Roger Edgington
Member From: San Antonio, Texas USA
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posted 10 March 2004 08:10 AM
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I'm with David on this one. I don't understand the concept of having a pad other than to cover up holes in the body where the other mechanisms once were. I certainly would not want to pay for it or carry it. I don't see it as an arm rest but, more as a piece of trim. I would like the freedom of nothing being in the way.A single 10 on a S-12 frame would be a good compromise to me. Plenty of room for knee levers and no pad in the way. It might even be better for manufactures. |
Jim Eaton
Member From: Santa Susana, Ca
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posted 10 March 2004 08:23 AM
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IMHO - When I play a single wide guitar, if I sit as close to the "back" of the guitar as I'm use to sitting, I feel like I have to drop my elbows too low. If I move back where my elbows feel right, I feel like I'm reaching out to get to the strings
On the other hand, when I play the E9th neck of my D-10 or my SD-10, I don't feel like I'm reaching to get to the strings.
Put my vote in the "double body" column.
JE:-)> |
Gerald Menke
Member From: Brooklyn, NY, USA
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posted 10 March 2004 08:31 AM
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Interesting question, in terms of geometry, especially left leg angle from pedal A to LKL, S-10s, for me anyway, really take some getting used to. My first steel was a SD-10, when I got a D-10 it was no big deal at all to make the switch. When I played an S-10 for the first time, however,it really took me a while to get used to it, especially the ergonomics of the left side. The LKV is in a different spot entirely, which really does take some getting used to. I find my knees definitely bend at a different angle when playing an S-10, too. The biggest advantage of an S-10? The size. My Williams S-10 looks like it could be a sax case, and weighs maybe 35 pounds. For a regularly gigging/rehearsing guy like me, that is a big plus. I play on some CRAMPED stages, and in tiny rehearsal spaces; an S-10 is helpful in this regard as well. As far as tone, goes, pedal steels are electric instruments, their tone isn't as reliant on the size of the cabinet as an acoustic instrument like a piano, cello or guitar. I think pickups, strings and cables play a much bigger role in determining the tone of electric instruments. I'm pretty sure as was mentioned above, blind tests would support this.
Gerald
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Loren Morehouse
Member From: Meadowlands, MN USA
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posted 10 March 2004 09:01 AM
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Actually I'm kind of sorry they quite making a true single neck body. I've got a Pro I and an Emmons SD-10. Playing out I love the Bud cause it's lighter, takes up less space, and still kicks!! And now a days, anything lighter that sounds great is what I'm after. Don't get me wrong, there's advantages to a double frame. I love my Emmons, but I'm looking at size and weight for myself. Loren. |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 10 March 2004 09:31 AM
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I will have to agree with Dave and Loren. As has been said, most builders make a wider body for a S10 or S12 and that takes care of Knee levers, etc.
I personally will take a lightweight S10 body over a heavy SD10 body. If I am going to haul around a D10 body, I might as well get a D10 with strings on it........al  ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/ |
Nicholas Dedring
Member From: Brooklyn, New York, USA
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posted 10 March 2004 09:58 AM
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My shins hurt like nobody's business sitting at a single wide guitar. I don't find it comfortable for my ankles and lower leg to have to flex my feet up so much when hitting pedals. I'm used to having the knee levers where they are, and don't want to have to push forward so far. I get this kind of shinsplint kind of feeling from it. |
fraser
Member From: seattle wa
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posted 10 March 2004 09:59 AM
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I like my S10 (C6) and how lightweight it is (aluminum). One disadvantage though is that it gets a little tippy when playing , esp. knee levers on the far right and left . Fraser |
Bill Miller
Member From: Gaspé, Québec, Canada
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posted 10 March 2004 10:02 AM
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Some interesting perspectives here. The extra room for knee levers is something I hadn't thought of. That alone would be an advantage for me personally. Being fairly beefy I wouldn't mind carrying the extra weight too much but I would appreciate the extra room for my legs under there.
Having only ever played an S-10 I'm wondering if the pad on an SD-10 would be a hinderance for me too though. Does anyone use them with no pad? Might look a bit like a coffee table I guess. |
Ray Minich
Member From: Limestone, New York, USA
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posted 10 March 2004 12:19 PM
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I have an Emmons SD-10 and two Dekley S-10's. I like the room in the top of the SD-10 as it gives me an arm rest (of course you don't use it, it's a mental crutch) and a nice place to put the bar and picks between the pad & E9th fretboard. The bar and picks roll right off the Dekley tops 'cause there ain't as much room. I think if I was gonna run a 2nd left or right knee lever, where there was one already, I'd want the wider body of the SD-10. |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 10 March 2004 01:40 PM
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David hit it on the head. SD-10's are slower
guitars and encourage the bad habit of dropping your wrists. S-10's are a faster guitar. |
Jim Eaton
Member From: Santa Susana, Ca
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posted 10 March 2004 03:17 PM
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Kevin,
If you have an SD-10 with a pad, and you keep your arms up off the pad, (IMHO) that's the exact same position as using the front neck of a D-10, so your saying that an S10 is a faster guitar than a D-10?
JE:-)>------------------
Emmons D10 8/4 P/P -75'
Fessenden SD-10 3/5
MSA SD-12 4/4 - 76'
76'Session 400
86'Nashville 400
Bandit 112 [This message was edited by Jim Eaton on 10 March 2004 at 03:18 PM.]
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David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 10 March 2004 03:52 PM
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Bill, coming from an S-10, you'll feel fine with another S-10. You might feel awkward at an SD-10, and should probably try one before you make the leap. After starting on an S-10, I never liked the feel of an SD-10, and also felt awkward on a D10. It felt like the E9 neck was too far away, and I didn't like either resting my arms on the C6 neck, or having to hold my arms up off of it. I'm sure if I played one awhile I would get used to it like everybody else. But I moved to a universal, and stayed with a single (or 1 1/2) body. I can completely understand how a D10 player might want a double body if he moved to a single neck 10. I don't think any of this is a deal breaker. It's mostly personal preference, and you'll probably get used to either one in a matter of weeks. Obviously people make great music on all configurations of pedal steels. |
Bill Miller
Member From: Gaspé, Québec, Canada
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posted 10 March 2004 04:17 PM
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Well David, your point is well taken but there is a complicating factor. I'm used to my S-10 but it has no knee levers. Whether I eventually move to a modern S-10 or SD-10 I will have a major adjustment to make in learning to use knee levers. So if you take that into account I'd probably be better off to go with an SD-10. A good case has been made here for the added roominess and either way I'd be looking a big re-learning period. |
Jack Anderson
Member From: Scarborough, ME
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posted 10 March 2004 04:57 PM
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Isn't anyone going to point out that if the blank "neck" of an SD-10 is on the front side (farthest away from you), it makes a dandy place to put your drinks and snacks, and for adoring fans of the opposite sex to drape themselves without interfering with your playing? |
Terry Sneed
Member From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA
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posted 10 March 2004 07:00 PM
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I've never played an S-10, but I think it would take some getting use to after playing an SD-10 and D-10 for all these years. I would imagine it would take time getting use to being closer, with body, and eyesight in relation to the strings on a S-10. |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 11 March 2004 02:16 PM
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I just dumped my overstuffed uncomfortable to play SD 10.. I'll NEVER play anything other than a small light SINGLE frame s 10 again.... bob |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 11 March 2004 02:49 PM
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Jim, after owing both types of guitars I do believe that an S-10 is a faster guitar. I just always found myself wanting to rest my wrists on that pad. When I played a single S-10 there was nothing in the way. I found that not having the pad in the way was a great help. Trying to go back to the pad on an SD-10 was a detriment for me. This is just my opinion and observation. It may not be right for everyone. I just concur with David on this. I found his observations to be the same as mine. |
Nathan Delacretaz
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 11 March 2004 04:22 PM
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I love my SD10 for two reasons: it's my first pro-level PSG; and.....I can keep cheat sheet notes/charts on the pad for quick reference. Mechanical/ergonomic advantages? dunno/don't care... : ) |
John Wiesner
Member From: Clifton Park, New York, USA
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posted 12 March 2004 10:25 AM
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I think that the S-10 has some very good things to offer, the weight works out better when you are using the steel in several places. I have played the Carter D-10 and the S-10 model. One great feature about the Carter S-10 is that is built as a single neck and not as a double with one neck missing. The tone and sustain is superb on both models. The steel also has a half rear deck that makes it very stable and feels very comfortable to play. regards,John |
Bob Kagy
Member From: Lafayette, CO USA
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posted 12 March 2004 11:01 AM
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As a D10 player using both necks about equally, I find a noticeable difference in feel in terms of playing posture between the two necks. I like the playing feel of the inside C6th neck slightly better - there's more room to get into a better playing position.Based on that, I'd probably go for the S10 without the pad. |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 13 March 2004 10:43 AM
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FINALLY! It seems as majority are going for the S10, instead of SD10. Lighter weight, less expensive to buy, Every thing right there ready to play. When you go to a U12 with a 1 and 1/4 body you will feel right at home. That is my personal observation only.
Your opinion will vary...to each his own...............al ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/ |
John Macy
Member From: Denver, CO USA
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posted 13 March 2004 12:42 PM
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I love my SD10--it may be my favorite guitar I own. I feel like a fish out of water on a S10. I feel no difference in terms of speed compared to my D10s. Whatever works is what works for me... |
Travis Bernhardt
Member From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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posted 13 March 2004 03:42 PM
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I like the double frame. You can keep all sorts of stuff on it, and it's comfy. My own guitar is on a single frame, and I have no problem with it. I can't see that it would make an enormous difference either way.-Travis |
Jimmie Brown
Member From: Fayetteville, NC, USA
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posted 16 March 2004 06:14 PM
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I have owned a sho-bud double frame and now have a Fessy double and had a Dekley S-10 and i'll take the SD-10 anyday |
Larry Schubert
Member From: Orcutt, CA, USA
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posted 16 March 2004 09:08 PM
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I onwen an sd 10 that what I got so i dont kow any better. There is a nice place for your
picks and a pen. The left side of the pad is handy for a post it note sised set list. What it really come down to what are you more comfortable playing behinde. For me next tme i want a single 12 string extened E9 |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 16 March 2004 09:18 PM
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I never had a problem with an S-10 even though I've played D-10's my entire adult life. However, several students of mine with S-10's have ergonomic problems due to having to keep their wrists supported, and prefer the SD-10. Whatever floats y'all's boats is MHO.------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association |
John Cox
Member From: Bryan, Texas, USA
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posted 17 March 2004 09:01 AM
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I vote for the S10. I've had a few SD10s and the pads are uncomfortable for me. And with the wider body, you might as well be carrying a D10.
J.C. |
Ray Minich
Member From: Limestone, New York, USA
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posted 17 March 2004 09:24 AM
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objects in mirror are closer than they appear...
some settling of contents will occur during shipping and handling...
manufacturer specifically disclaims that product is suitable for intended purpose...An S-10 is 1/3rd less filling than an SD-10 |
Rich Weiss
Member From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA
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posted 17 March 2004 01:21 PM
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I played a S-10 (ZB) for 20 years. About ten years ago I went to a SD-10. The SD-10 is easier for me to play cause I can rest my arms on the pad, but there is also friction on my arms when sliding up and down, which didn't exist on the S-10. I think the S-10 looks cooler, but the SD-10 allows you to put a plate and drink on it, so you can use it as a table, when there's no other place to sit and eat. |
Dave Ristrim
Member From: Whites Creek, TN
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posted 18 March 2004 07:36 AM
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It took me awhile to get used to a S12 vs a D12. The arm support was the major issue. But the reason I did not opt for a SD12 was: the weight, the size, and the cabinet drop. If I am going to give up my C neck, I'll go all the way.
I play S12's on the road unless the band is doing something that calls for a C neck ( which has not happend since moving to Nashville), and I also do most all sessions in town with a S12. I got into S12's in the mid 1990's when my back blew out. I currently own a S12 Franklin, and a S12 Carter which is always by my side. Also just got a Sho-Bud SD12 from Junior Knight which I have not had time to get into yet. I still have and love all my D12's, Franklin 9X9(only one ever built), Mullen 9X8, Emmons PP 9X8, Emmons PP 10X9 and a Fender 400, and a 2000.
I guess I really do like pedal steel guitar?
Dave |
Terry Sneed
Member From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA
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posted 18 March 2004 07:51 AM
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Can somebody tell me the difference in weight of the S10--SD10? or a close
estimate? If I decide not to learn to play
my C6, then I'm either goin to get an S10
or SD10, the latter being what I've always played. but if it's like 25 lbs or more
difference in weight, then I'd rather get
an S10, because of my bad back.thanks
!! Dang Dave!! you got to many guitars,just give me one and you won't have to worry about playin all of em.  ------------------
TW Sneed
[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 18 March 2004 at 07:55 AM.] |
Nicholas Dedring
Member From: Brooklyn, New York, USA
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posted 18 March 2004 09:38 AM
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I think you don't save as much as you might think on weight when you get an S10. It is certainly less bulky to tote around, but just for an example, on Bill Rudolph's site for williams, www.williamsguitarcompany.com he gives the following weights:D-10 with 8p4kl: 36 lbs.
SD-10 with 3p4kl: 30 lbs.
S-10 with 3p4kl: 25 lbs.
S-12 Universal 7p4kl: 30 lbs.
SD-12 Universal 7p4kl: 35 lbs Williams are pretty light to begin with, but that's certainly less of a weight disadvantage than I would have thought. I would say that if you are getting started on the instrument, and you can swing it, get a D10 instead of an SD10... even if you don't plan on a whole lot of C6 playing. It's a bit of fun to have something else to do... and if it's only 10 or 11 pounds anyway... |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 18 March 2004 10:28 AM
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Don't forget to add the extra weight for the larger case to the above figures. |
Terry Sneed
Member From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA
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posted 18 March 2004 10:39 AM
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Yikes! Thanks Nichalos. only 5 lbs different in an S10/ SD10. I figured it would be a lot more than that. even with the bigger case, the SD shouldn't weigh that much more, Iwouldn't think.------------------
TW Sneed
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