Also, "how did the old boys tune the piano before tuners?"

Probably the same way they do now. They get a refrence note, (usually E) and go from there as most have always done depending on whether they tune JI or ET or somewhere in between.

Of course some will ask the piano player to sound a chord and the steel player will tweak so it blends as best it can with two totally different types of musical instruments.

Unless a steel player tunes 100% ET could he even get close to a piano, accross the board; and then only in the octave around middle C, since most pianos are stretch tuned and no way to stretch tune a steel guitar as yet.

I wish to comment that tuners have NOT driven the steel player as far as I can determine. Rather the steel player still "drives" the tuner. The only difference is in most cases, the ONLY thing that has changed is the tuner has in most cases:

1. Verified what many steelers' ears have told them for years.

2. Made tuning our instrument much faster once a tuner is understood and "programmed" to be IN line with the way the steel player tunes.

In other words, IF a player likes his thirds at 14.5 cents flat, the tuner is used to get it there much quicker.

I know of no player who has changed his desired way of "tuning" to be a result of the tuner. Albeit there may be some. Rather the tuner is just programmed to be what the player wants, and then from that point on, it makes tuning a snap instead of a drudge.

They've been around at least as long as pianos.

They tuned the PROPER number of beats per second to the thirds and fifths and other intervals. I remember him counting them with him as a young child.

I tried tonight, a couple "tempered tuning charts". Turned on the overdrive, and ended up finding more dissonant intervals and flat or sharp single notes than I'd ever imagined. Moving third intervals up and down the fretboard and single note runs was where I found the most dissonance.

No thanks.

I'm leaving this Valley of Intonation Sodom and Gomorrah. It's all going right back exactly to Zero. 440mhz. All the changes, all the way across. Just like the last quarter century.

I'll continue walking in the faith that my Creator will continue to guide my left hand to make things sound a little less edgy. I hereby repent my doubting him.

No looking back.

I'm not going to turn into that well known Pillar of Salt.

Not a chance.

I'm praying fer all y'all.

EJL

Don't know what reference Lloyd used, although piano seems like the obvious choice.

Sonny

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I will add that I"ve heard other players sound very much in tune and then I'd sit behind their axe and it would sound awful to my ears. But, they make it work for them. How much pressure I place on the bar, the angle I hold that bar, how hard I play those strings...all of that sure makes a difference in the tuning thing. Generally, if something is working, I simply stick with it. Doesn't make anyone else's approach wrong whatsoever. What works for Jeff or Lloyd or Paul or Buddy...may not work for you (or it may if you're willing to give it a shot and live with differences your ear may be hearing).

Electronic keys are not tempered in the same way acoustic pianos are normally tuned. The octaves are pretty much exact up and down the scale. I just checked (in the event that I am nuts) and each octave shows up at the same exact place on the meter, not progressively higher or lower in apparent pitch.

Steel is a wacky instrument and part of the difficulty in playing the thing is playing in tune. All of us won't get the on-going opportunity of working with incredible pianos that are tuned nearly daily so probably the next best reference would be an electronic keyboard. Maybe you could have a friend record some simple chord changes to a CD (and assuming that the CD records at a speed that will reproduce accurately) and then you could play various positions of those same chords and see how they sound.

For me, if an open E chord (on the E9th) or an open C chord (on the C6th) is in tune with a keyboard (electronic usually), then everything else is my use of the bar. When it does sound really good in tune, check your root strings against a tuner and see where you are (I won't even mention the possibility that all tuners are not created equal).

Here is something interesting. If a steel player tunes JI; AND he tunes his E note on E9th to the piano; and his C note on C6 to the piano; the E note on the 2nd and 6th strings of C6 will be way flat of the E notes on strings 4 and 8 of E9th.

Also, the G#'s and C#'s on his E neck will be way flat of the piano. Possibly the same for his F#'s, not to mention his F's using the E lever!

So how can any steel player who tunes JI (and most do) say they are in tune with the piano?

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 01 April 2004 at 08:08 PM.]

I think what most players mean when they say they are in tune with the piano is that it's 'generally' there. Kinda like rounding off numbers that aren't exact. Finding the place that seems to work the best overall in most situations.

I was doing a demo once that Buddy Cannon and Norro Wilson were producing and the first four or so songs went really well. However, the last song seemed as if my steel and the piano were clashing terribly. I kept tuning and touching it up and trying to force it to work right, but it was not working. The piano seemed in tune with the track, but when the engineer finally solo'd the piano, it appeared that a few notes had slipped. They removed the piano from the mix and my parts worked with the rest of the band. There are just so many freaking variables and some (like this one) that sure made me feel as if I had an ear problem.

You know, being a player who likes to play in tune is akin to being a negotiator who is always trying to find common ground or mutual interests between two or more parties in the hopes of making something work for all. Tough job...and so is tuning. I've worked in the studio with bagpipes before...you want to talk about negotiating tuning?!!