I could not live without strings 9 and 10 on either tuning now however. Not sure many would. The 9th string dominant 7th tone (E9th) is an absolute as far as I am concerned.

If I had to go to 8 strings, It would be almost impossible to figure out what to give up. I suppose in a real drag out battle may be string 10 could go, but the other string, I just don't know. Maybe the 2nd string. Not sure.

quote:

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They would probably still be 8 stringers if Buddy had not discovered the F# and D# (1st and 2nd strings) called "chromatic" strings.

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quote:

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But if I had an 8 string that could lower the high G# to F#

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or 1-8

theres just too much music and too many awesome phrases down there in 9+10 land.

I'm not saying I am a master at this stuff, just that I have come to start using them for what and where they are.

it's a brave new world down there..

string 9 with the lower along with string 10 with the raise..phrased with string 7 rasie.

then we got string 10 lower..

it's just to crazy down there to leave it out !

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

BTW Didn't Jimmy Day do "Steel & Strings" on an 8 string Sho Bud?

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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

[This message was edited by Darvin Willhoite on 09 July 2004 at 06:07 AM.]

1000 - D-8 with 8 or more pedals (knee levers were not an option at that time).

400 - S-8 with 4 or more pedals.

Both of these models show up frequently on ebay and they are still inexpensive (much cheaper than the non-pedal Fenders), although I believe the prices are starting to climb. There's been lots of discussion on the Forum. If you are interested, use the search function and keyword "Fender 1000" or "Fender 400".

I have a video of me playing with James Hand on my Bigsby and until the camera cuts to me, I couldn't tell which guitar I was playing... my Emmons, my Fessy, or the Bigsby. It's a matter of note choice and bar control. Learning the instrument, in other words... which I am still trying to do, incidentally.

Buddy, Moon, and Jimmy D. played stuff on 8-string guitars that baffle players to this day with smoothness and creativity.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jud

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Carter D10, Fender 400
Nashville 1000, Goodrich LDR
DigiTech RP-100

I just joined the forum, and at a good time apparently (I just bought an 8-string Fender 400 on Ebay). It has 4 pedals, and no knee levers. This is my first *pedal* steel, so I'm asking for copedant advice.

So, I have now set the thing up thusly:

Low to High: E-F#-G#-B-E-G#-D#-F#

I have the 2, 3 and 4 pedal set up like the usual E9 ABC, so I guess I'll call the first pedal the "zero pedal"... is that correct syntax?

So that first pedal I now set to lower the E's to D#, which seems handy. Extra bonus in this move is that, with zero pedal held down, I get a sort of B6 lap steel tuning on strings 3 thru 8 (which I use on my Rick 6 sometimes, with a Jerry Byrd bar for slants... I like B6 (rather than C6) because the "money string" is a B, which is similar to regular guitar, which helps me navigate... and I do need the help!

Paul had suggested that pedal as rasing E's to F's, but the Fender only allows one raise and one lower per string, so if I keep the standard C-pedal (B and E raised to C# and F#), then no-go on the raise of E to F.

So what would you suggest? I've seen the idea of lowering the G#s to G, and that might be good... but, assuming no knees, how could I best get going on E9.

Harmonic priorities: majors, minors, not so much 9ths and 13ths.

quote:

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Harmonic priorities: majors, minors, not so much 9ths and 13ths.

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    1  2  3  4
F#
D#     C#  
G#        A  
E   F        Eb
B      C#
G#        A
F#
E   F        Eb

The following is why:

1. These 4 sets of changes are the major and IMO, the absolute minimum changes necessary on a PSG.

2. The Changes on pedal 1 are used with pedal 2 a lot

3. The changes on pedal 4 are used with pedal 3 a lot.

4. Because of 2 and 3, it is considered by most to place these changes next to those changes they are used the most, next door to each other.

5. You will use pedal 1 a lot more than your pedal C. True, you will be giving up the F# minor chord. But you will gain soo much with the above 1st pedal. Since it is a sacrifce in any case. I would opt' for sacrificing the E to F# change on string 4.

Having said this, if there was any way to have at least two knee levers installed, (a number of 400's have had this done), I would ask you to consider the following:

    1  2  3  4   LKL  LKR
F#
D#     C#
G#  G     A
E            F#   F*   Eb
B      C#    C#
G#  G     A
F#
E                 F    Eb

*NOTE: I would put an adjustabe stop under the guitar on this cable to give the E to F change, since the 4th pedal E to F# change is set at the right end plate.

All Emmons' P/P's have had to do this since day one. It is not hard to do. The only drawback is you must tune the F underneath the guitar. All P/P owners do this. They call it a "half-tone" tuner.

If you were lucky enough to get 4 knee levers I would suggest the following:

    1  2  3  4  LKL  LKR  RKL  RKR
F#                         G
D#     C#*                      D
G#  G     A
E            F#  F*   Eb
B      C#    C#
G#  G     A                 
F#                         G                
E                F    Eb*       D

*Half-tone tuners

I cannot begin to tell you how good this copedent would be for you. Particularly RKR. Since you have lost a most important dominant 7th note on string 9, this setup at least partially makes up for it.

Good luck, and may Jesus bless you in your quests,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 10 July 2004 at 07:36 PM.]

Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I'm looking at the first suggestion (not adding knee levers yet!), and I can see there is a lot there, and I think that giving up E-F# is ok.

Carl's first suggestion:

      1   2   3   4
F#
D#      C#  
G#  F         A   Eb
E
B         C#
G#             A
F#
E     F              Eb

-dean-

[This message was edited by b0b on 11 July 2004 at 09:06 AM.]

To make tab work, do the following. Take any post where tab does work, click on the "edit" at the top of that post. You will not be able to edit it, BUT you can see that they did, then you can simply copy what they did.

As to the C# on the 2nd string with pedal 2. That is a good question and your perception is quite acute. This means you have an inate talent that will lead you far.

Ok, let me give you the history of the 2nd string lower to C#. But let's go back even further. The very first popular knee lever (there may have been some home made attempts prior), did the following:

Lowered 2 and 8 a half a tone. For quite a while many steel players had this lone knee lever. This gave us two of what has become "musts" in the evolution of the PSG.

Sometime later Buddy Emmons recorded a classic lick on a Ray Price song (I can never remember the name of that song) where he picked two strings in unison, and then let one of them (2nd) string rise and the other one (5th string) fall as they sustained. This drove most of us steel players crazy tryin' to find out what he did.

Well he simply lowered the 2nd string to C# with a knee lever and of course raised the 5th string to C# with the A pedal; picked them as unison notes; then released the knee lever and the pedal. This awesome sound as one note is raising and the other one dropping is now classic PSG.

In fact a number of PSG players back then actually installed this new "lick" change ON the A pedal. I have an old Sho-Bud tuning chart that included many of today's great players, that show the D# to C# change added to the A pedal. Buddy Charleton is one I remember.

However, as YOU say, it will mess up some things if it is there. So two things happened in the developement of the PSG. First lowering both 2 and 8 a half a tone was NOT to remain for the same reason you stated.

So they added a another knee lever that lowered BOTH E's to Eb (LKR standard today) and on the original knee lever that lowered both 2 and 8 a half a tone, they dropped the 8th string lower and changed the 2nd string so it lowered a whole tone instead; or D# to C#. (RKR standard today)

They then went one step further, they figured out a way to add a "half-stop" to that lever. So that you could have the D#; OR the D; OR the C#. This is accomplished using a separate adjustable spring; so the player can "feel" it when the D note is reached.

In the last few years, they have gone even one step further on this original knee lever. IE, they now lower the 9th string from a D to a C#. One caveat! Most players like it so that the knee lever pulls on string 2 and 9 are such, that the 9th string does NOT start pulling until the 2nd string has reached the D note. This gives a D on string 2 and 9 together. I make use of this often; as do others.

Now on my suggested copedent for you, I had a serious problem, that C# on the 2nd string is soooooooo crucial that IMO, it becomes a must. The only problem is you have a guitar that can only pull two strings with one pedal or knee lever. (This CAN be modified but it is beyond the scope of this discussion).

So, the ONLY place I could locate it was on your A pedal. True it does mess up some mighty pretty stuff. But when you are limited, ya gotta do the best you can. And again many players began putting it on the A pedal. So it is NOT just shootin from tha hip.

Now that I have introduced the "half-stop". I would modify the bottom copedent I showed; and put a half stop on RKR. Then of course I would remove the D# to C# move on your A pedal. If you ever did this (with the 4 knee levers) you would then IMO have the minimum necessary on any E9th PSG.

    1  2  3  4  LKL  LKR  RKL  RKR
F#                         G
D#                             D/C#**
G#  G     A
E            F#  F*   Eb
B      C#    C#
G#  G     A
F#                         G
E                F    Eb*      D

* Half-tone tuner
** Half-Stop

Thanks for asking.

NOTE: The A B C pedals and the first knee lever called "D" lever is self explanatory. What follows will forever be confusing.

When they spit the lone knee lever into two knee levers, some players called the new knee lever E. Yet others called the new knee lever D. The latter group called the original lever E. Yet a third group calls the original something else.

Because of this, there has been an ongoing built-in confusion, and a number of discussions (some heated) about it. But then that is life isn't it?

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 11 July 2004 at 09:31 AM.]

I've used your first no-knee idea and been trying it for a while. A-B is definitely a life-saver in finding all the triads, and also in moving up the neck in thirds or 6ths (keeping B down and using A to choose major third or minor third).

         A  B  C  D
F#     
D#
G#             A
E        F          D#
B           C#
G#             A
F#
E        F          D#

I kept the upper D# unmoved, tho, cause it's purty.

Any thoughts as to sound of the Excel vs Fender 400? I have to say I'm loving the sound of this Fender 400 thru a tweed Vibrolux at living-room volume level! (Except the countiuous LF hum from the amp, not the guitar).

I'm playing with thumb pick and fingers with nails (from guitar-land), and the wider 8-spacing is what makes this possible (fun) for me. I have no idea how you guys do it with the spacing on 10s... was there a panic about that when everyone converted to 10 from 8?