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Author
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Topic: E9th 2nd string tuned to D?
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Ron Sodos
Member From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
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posted 26 October 2004 07:19 AM
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I have been thinking about switching to Jimmy Crawfords style of tuning with the 2nd string tuned to D and raising and lowering it 1/2 step instead of the standard D# with a double stop lower. Anybody using it and is there somewhere i can see achart as to how Jimmy Crafrd has his other knee levers set up. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 26 October 2004 08:35 AM
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Consider this:
Positions for C Scale Partials on the Top 5 Strings:fret pedals 2nd string
1 A D#
3 A+B+D D
4 A+F+G D#
6 A+F D#
8 A D#
10 A+B+D D
11 A+F D# Notice that the D lever is only used in 2 of the 7 scale positions. That's why the standard tuning uses D# and not D.
It's not necessarily a bad idea to put D# to C# on separate lever, but tuning the second string to D just makes the instrument harder to play. I know - I played it that way for 15 years!------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 26 October 2004 at 08:35 AM.] |
Rob Segal
Member From: NYC
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posted 26 October 2004 08:55 AM
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Then why is the 9th at D? |
Ron Sodos
Member From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
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posted 26 October 2004 09:31 AM
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I must be dense but I looked at the chart above for 10 minutes and don't get it. I have been told by a couple of steel playersthat use the Jimmy Crawford tuning that it makes mpore sense tuning the 2nd string to D. It eliminates the half stops. well I would need to see a copedant chart for the tuning. Do you know of a complete chart for Jimmy Crawfords tuning.
Ron |
Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 26 October 2004 09:55 AM
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Ron, the standard E9 tuning allows three notes on the 2nd string - D#,D,C#. The big majority of players tune the D# open, and use a single knee lever to lower the D# to a D (with a half-stop), and then lower further to a C#. If you choose to tune the second string to D, then it's true you won't need a half-stop, but that's because your will instead require TWO knee levers, one to raise the string to D#, and on to lower it to C#. Having a half-stop is an advantage the large majority of players want because there are only so many knee levers allowed, and most players would rather have a single knee lever control two notes by using a half-stop, than giving up one of their precious knee levers for the extra note. In fact, even if you don't want a half-stop (some players don't), you can leave the open string at D#, and use two knee levers, one to lower the string to a D, and a separate lever to lower it to C#. In summary, the only reason to change the second string to an open D is if you feel the note works better for you. I agree with b0b's analysis. The majority of players find the combination of using a D# open with a half-stop gives them the most likely note they will need and the ability to get two other notes on one knee lever, thereby freeing up the extra knee lever for other duty. .. Jeff------------------
Jeff's Jazz
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Bengt Erlandsen
Member From: Brekstad, NORWAY
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posted 26 October 2004 10:21 AM
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Chart makes sense to me.Why is 9th string D and not 2nd string. I might be wrong but seems to me that the b7 occurs more in the bottom of a voicing than the natural 7th. On the top strings if one plays strings 6 5 2 1 ( G# B D# F# ) on has a minor7th which occours 3 places in the diatonic scale. Tune the 2nd string to D and you have a min7b5 which is only found 1 place. Play strings 5 2 1 ( B D# F# ) and you have the Vchord. So tuning the 2nd string to D would make the Vchord minor which in turn would suggest that strings 6 & 3 should be tuned to G to make the Ichord minor also if it should make sense IMO.
What makes sense to someone might not make sense to others. There are things that will be easier to play if the 2nd string is tuned to D. On the other hand it also makes a lot of what I want to play more difficult so I choose the D# instead. What does your heart want to play = which tool(tuning) is required (and further, which pedal/lever changes do you need)
But the music should always come first. Bengt Erlandsen If the 2nd str is tuned to D then a lever that raise 1 & 7 F# to G seems to an essential change to complement the tuning.[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 26 October 2004 at 10:29 AM.] |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 26 October 2004 10:22 AM
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Hey Ron, I'm in the camp of tuning your 2nd string to something other than D#. I tune mine to C# as does Hal Rugg, Weldon Myrick, Mike Perlowin, and others. I'm of the older school in which to get that D# note I just lower my 4th string in most situations or move my bar. I think the D on the 2nd string is fine and so do a bunch of others, especially Jimmy C. If you want to eliminate excessive knee levers you can use one to bring the D back to D#. Then to lower it to C#, you can add that change to the lever which lowers the 4th and 8th strings to D#(Eb). It's very usable that way and you can get a lot of good things with it there. On my old ShoBud U-12 I tuned the 2nd to D# and lowered it to D along with string 8 and then lowered it to C# with the E's. Jimmy Crawford does a lot of bluegrass and fiddle tunes on the steel and IMHO I think the D note is more useful than the D# especially with the A & B pedals engaged. With the A & B down, the D# is a flat 5 of the scale and the D is a 6 and falls right in line. Plus if you do a fast run with no pedals starting on string 5. Play this sequence: 5 2 4 1 3 1 4 2 5... Then try it with the 2nd string at D or C#. I think it sounds better at least to my old ears.....
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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 26 October 2004 at 10:29 AM.] [This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 26 October 2004 at 10:32 AM.]
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Bob Tuttle
Member From: San Angelo, Tx, USA
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posted 26 October 2004 10:55 AM
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In the January 1980 issue of "Steel Guitarist" magazine, (that's the one with Tom Brumley on the cover) there are a lot of tuning/pedal setup charts. Jimmy Crawford's chart shows that he is lowering the D note on the second string to C# with one lever, lowering it to C with another lever, raising it to D# with yet another, and raising it to E (along with raising the first, F#, to G) on his pedal number 10.
It's easier to get these four movements with the string tuned to D than it would be if it were tuned to the standard Eb (or D#).By the way, you can buy the whole set of 6 of these great magazines right here on the forum for only $20. There is a lot of valuable information in these. (Hey, b0b, I'll expect my commission check in the mail.) 
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Bengt Erlandsen
Member From: Brekstad, NORWAY
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posted 26 October 2004 12:29 PM
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quote:
It's easier to get these four movements with the string tuned to D than it would be if it were tuned to the standard Eb (or D#)
That would seem to be very true.
Still one has to find the answer if those 4 movements are the ones that are required to best express ones musical ideas. They wont allow what I have in mind but for somebody else it might be the perfect tool. If tuning 2nd to D better can help express your musical ideas then it is the way to go. Bengt |
Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 26 October 2004 12:58 PM
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I can't add any deep thoughts to the discussion, Ron, but FWIW I go with the open D. If I used an open D# I would still use two levers because me & half stops don't get along real well. I no way no how make any claims of superiority for my choice but it works for me. I have flirted with the idea of changing and it still could happen--nothing's etched in stone ('cept my epitaph). |
Ron Sodos
Member From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
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posted 26 October 2004 01:12 PM
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John
I would be interested as to what your knee levers do. I like the idea of 2nd string to D and raising and lowering but I am not sure what lever I would sacrifice as i use them all. Can you tell me what knee does what?
Thanx Ron[This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 26 October 2004 at 01:13 PM.] |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 26 October 2004 01:14 PM
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I don't have the half-stop. I have D and C# on two separate levers.
Ron, my chart shows seven common positions for licks in the key of C. In 5 of those 7 positions, the D# string is required to get one of the notes of the C scale. Only 2 of the 7 positions require a D string.
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6) |
Terry Sneed
Member From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA
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posted 26 October 2004 02:07 PM
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Don't mean to but in, but I have the D#-D-C# on LKL. but I only use the D# to D. what is the D# to C# for? 
Terry------------------
84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord. [This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 26 October 2004 at 02:11 PM.]
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Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 26 October 2004 02:37 PM
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Ron--I responded to your email.
One thing that I'm reconsidering after years of enjoying the notion of an idiosyncratic setup is the hassle of sitting down at someone else's guitar. My setup is hopelessly personalized. I recently turned down an invitation to the stand to sit at a friend's steel while he played guitar because I knew that it is hard enough to sit at an unfamiliar steel. But add to that the different setups (and the D-10 instead of my U-12) and I knew that I didn't have nearly enough Maker's Mark in me to do something so foolhardy. |
Archie Nicol
Member From: Ayrshire, Scotland
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posted 26 October 2004 02:46 PM
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Ron, the 1980 publication `A Manual of Style` by Winnie Winston and Fred Amendola has Jimmy's tunings up to that date.
This is great book with the most sensible tab you'll ever find. |
Terry Bethel
Member From: Hollister,Mo 65672 USA
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posted 26 October 2004 10:16 PM
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Ron, I tune my second string to D on E9th.
Here is what I am doing with my E9 knees,
LL E's to F
LV B's to Bb
LKR D to C# 2nd string
G# to F# 6th string
RKL E's to Eb
RKR D to D# 2nd string
D to C# 9th string 4th floor pedal B to A fifth string Hope this helps you.
It works for Crawford and it works for me.
It still depends on what sounds you want from the guitar.
Terry Bethel |
Ron Sodos
Member From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
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posted 26 October 2004 10:43 PM
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Hi Terry,
I visited with Darrel Davidson this evening and he showed me his Zum with almost the identical tuning to you Terry. After about 1/2 hour of playing on his steel I was convinced I needed to make some changes. So when I got home I took the plunge and tuned my 2nd string to D. I used the pedal (LKL) which was already set up for the 2nd string whole step lower and changed it to a 1/2 step which lowers to C# and had a pedal I wasn't using ( another LKL) set up to raise it 1/2 step to D#. I already had most of the other changes. Es lower RKL and my Es raise on RKR It may be a little wierd but I really like it and it feels comfortable. It just seems logical now to have the D open and raise and lower. It opens up some really beautiful licks that didn't seem as available as before. I'm excited about playing this way. The only pedal I really didn't want to mess with is my LKR which raises my 1st string a whole step to G# (I love it) and lowers my g# down to F#. I wish I could figure how to have those 2 changes on different knees but I really don't want to lose anthing else so I'll use it this way for a while.
One real interesting thing I may also try that you use is the 4th pedal lowering the Bs down to A. Now I understand one lick I have been trying to play in "We Could" and could only find it by slanting the bar. I think you are using that 4th pedal.What a gas. Holy Cow this is why I started playing in the first place.
Thanx so much for the inspiration.
Ron Sodos............ [This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 26 October 2004 at 10:50 PM.] |
John Macy
Member From: Denver, CO USA
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posted 26 October 2004 10:49 PM
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Being a Crawford disciple, I have the same setup as Terry listed, with a couple of additions.An extra LKL dropping the G#'s to G An extra LKR taking the 2nd string d to E, and also raising the 1st string F# to G# (my LKV takes my 6th string G# up to B) An extra RKL taking the 2nd string D to E, and rasing the first string F# to G (which is on pedal 10 on Jimme's setup) Couldn't have it any other way |
Terry Bethel
Member From: Hollister,Mo 65672 USA
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posted 02 November 2004 10:47 PM
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Ron,
Yes I use the 4th pedal to lower the top B on the E9th neck. It is out of position there, but I also change three strings on the C6th with that pedal so I dropped the bottom B off, the action was a little stiff, Three whole steps and two half steps just didn't work out. I thought about adding another knee, but I like the way everything works for me now, so I dropped that idea for now.
Terry |
Jay Fagerlie
Member From: Lotus, California, USA
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posted 05 November 2004 07:30 AM
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From Terry Sneed, above "Don't mean to but in, but I have the D#-D-C# on LKL. but I only use the D# to D. what is the D# to C# for?
Terry"I didn't see an answer, and being a fresh convert, I'd like to know also. Thanks Jay |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 05 November 2004 12:50 PM
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I often use the C# note with my E's lowered. In that position, it's similar to the first string D on the C6th tuning. I use it for pentatonic blues licks in the #5 position (8th fret for the key of E).Some people use the 2nd string C# along with the first pedal for the so-called "Touch My Heart" lick. You use the lever and pedal together to get a unison on the 2nd and 5th strings. Then you release both and the note splits into a major third.[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 05 November 2004 at 12:50 PM.] |
Tony Dingus
Member From: Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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posted 06 November 2004 09:11 AM
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Terry and Jay, here's some licks I use lowering the D# to D and C#.
The first one in G.
1--------------------------------------
2------10L1/2~~10L---------------------
3--------------------------------------
4--10------------------------10--------
5--------------------10------10~10A----
6-----------------------10B------------
G7
1----------------
2--10~~~8L-------
3--10B~~8B-------
4----------8~8L--
5----------------
D7
1----------------------
2---5L~~4~~3-----------
3----------------------
4----------------------
5-------------3A~3-----
6---5B~~4B~3B----------
I hope this will be of some help.
Tony
[This message was edited by Tony Dingus on 06 November 2004 at 09:14 AM.] |
Charles Curtis
Member From: Bethesda, Maryland, USA
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posted 06 November 2004 10:55 AM
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I have the 2nd string (E9), as Eb (orD#)and when playing "I Just Destroyed The World", I think it's the 6th measure I drop the 2nd string a step. If someone else can tell me a different way to do this, thanks in advance. |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 06 November 2004 03:54 PM
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Unlike Bob, I'm just a dummy at this theory stuff, but I think that if there was any great advantage to tuning the 2nd string to a "D", there'd be a lot more players doing it. |
Tony Dingus
Member From: Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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posted 06 November 2004 07:32 PM
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I remember reading something about the older guitars wouldn't lower a string a whole tone
and tuning to D then raising a half and lowering a half was the only solution. If I'm right about this, this would have been before the Emmons push-pull.
Tony |
John Macy
Member From: Denver, CO USA
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posted 07 November 2004 11:15 AM
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Hey Donnie,Or maybe it's like Beta/VHS--Beta was the better system, but VHS became the standard... Hope you're doing well [This message was edited by John Macy on 07 November 2004 at 11:15 AM.] |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 07 November 2004 01:42 PM
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Standards are good. |
Chris Newell
Member From: Ojai, California, USA
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posted 11 November 2004 09:21 AM
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"The greatest thing about standards is... There are so many to choose from!"Kit Newell
Ojai P.S. Just joined the forum and had to make a post somewhere! |
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