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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 04 November 2004 at 01:03 PM.]

I'm not sure I agree that most steel players tune untempered. I think a very large number use Jeff Newman's chart, which adjusts the tonic and, therefore, I would consider it tempered. Many others tune their thirds and sixths a bit sharp of JI to make other intervals less harsh.

I heartily agree with the main point of your post: Many steel players do confuse the term 'tempered tuning' with JI since they see an offset on the tuner. They must realize that most tuners show Equal Temperament, which IS TEMPERED. Granted, the newer Peterson that stores offsets may appear to be an exception, but tuning 'straight up' on a digital tuner will produce a TEMPERED tuning (ET).

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

quote:

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A tube that was 4/3 as long as another tube produced a perfect third harmony, for example.

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----I used to think that "tuning straight up" meant tuning in an unaltered, therefore untempered, JI manner. It took numerous blows to the head to make me understand that all standard electronic tuners are equal temperment and "straight up" means tuning so that the needle is centered on an ET dial. So "straight up" means ET.

It's my understanding (some or all of the following might be wrong) that one of the reasons tempered tuning came about has its roots in how the first musical instruments were developed.

Some of the first musical instruments were stringed instruments -- for example, maybe similar to a harp. Since there was no musical scale, the strings were simply tuned to each other so that they sounded good when played together.

For example, the second string was tuned to be a 5th of the first string, the third string was tuned to be a 5th of the second string, etc. etc. -- so, eventually, they ended up with a harp that was basically tuned to the circle of 5ths.

However, when they tuned the 13th string as a 5th of the 12th string, they found out that the 13th string was close to some octave of the 12th string, but not quite. Consequently, when the 1st string and the 13th string were played together (and certain other strings) a horrible sound was produced.

So, they figured out that if they "tweeked" each string a bit so that the 12th and 13th strings were perfect octaves, then they could have an instrument that was much more versatile, although it could not play perfect 5ths.

The above may be an over simplification, but I believe that I have the basic concept down. Maybe this has already been explained above -- if so, just ignore what I said.

Also, it seems to me that certain instruments are perfectly suited to being tuned to JI. For example, a string ensemble that consists only of instruments in the violin family can be tuned JI and can sound absolutely beautiful. The reason is that no more than two strings can be played at the same time on the instrument AND because only adjacent strings can be played at the same time AND because adjacent strings are tuned as 5ths.

Again, I might be wrong.

quote:

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I never understood how anyone could make a "tempered" chart like the one Jeff provided.

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I call it Tampered Tuning.

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"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back into the same box."

Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

An instrument that is tuned using just intonation in the key of C, for example will not be able to circulate through the other keys without nightmarish dissonance in those keys. The I, IV and V chords will sound terrific, absolutely beatless. But try and play a ii major, or in a remote key on a piano (or guitar for that matter) tuned using just intonation -- E major for example -- and your hair will stand on end. The beats between the 4ths and 5ths will be horrendous. But stay in the key of C, and you will be in a beatless paradise of “in tune-ness”. Some just intonation devotees find it hard to enjoy ET music because due to the tuning compromises, it is full of intervals that are not in tune.

Any time you stray from just intonation, which virtually no one in the realm of popular music uses, you are compromising. Equal temperament is the big compromise, sacrificing beatless intervals to allow for modal mixing. That after all, was the point of J.S. Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier", to show that ET allows the player to circulate through all of the keys.

I do agree with you in that we steel players, along with those who play just about any fretless instrument can play more "in tune" than any of the “fixed” note generating instruments such as the piano or guitar. But that is a factor of our not having fixed notes in the same way that pianos and fretted instruments do; we adjust just by moving the bar microtonal amounts, constantly “re-tuning”. The steel itself is not really tuned in a manner that we can really call “just intonation”. I have all but given up playing six string guitar, as it is just about impossible to get one really "in tune", i.e. all chords to sound “beatless”.

The C6 has the 3rds and 6ths in Just, as well as the 5, 6 and 7 pedals, everything else is tuned to be tolerable.

You are absolutely correct, Bach did not use equal temperament, I appreciate your correcting me! He did, however, write the 48 pieces -- a prelude and fugue in each of the 12 minor and major keys -- on a well-tempered instrument -- one whose tuning had been tweaked to allow for playing in all of the keys, C major being the most "in tune" incidentally. It was, to be sure, tuned in a way that is more similar to the equal temperament system than just intonation, which has its roots in the tuning system developed by Pythagoras, which you mentioned.

First of all, singers, fretless strings and horns in pop or any other kind of music tend to match JI to the extent that they can. After all they are playing to their ears, not a tempered tuner. However, they may on sustained notes match a piano or fretted bass that is laying out a strong tempered note.

Second, if you take your E from a tuner and then tune everything else to it by ear, tuning out beats, that is JI. The fact that you have taken your tuning from E or some other note rather than A (440) doesn't change that. Your instrument is tuned JI to itself, regardless of what the root is. Now, if you have compromised some places and allowed some beats and split the difference, those strings or pedal/lever stops are tempered in some way, not necessarily equal tempered. So what most of us do is a mixture of JI and some tempering. If it is mostly JI, b0b seems to be objecting to calling that a tempered tuning, and I see his point. It's mostly JI, with maybe a tempered tweak in a few places.

With some compensators for things like the F lever it is possible to tune a pedal steel almost completely JI up to a point. Contrary to what you said, the steel guitar can have movable JI chords, so key modulations are no problem with us. The problem is when you get too many pedals and knees and strings to get every permutation JI even with compensators, whether in the same key or modulations. Another problems is when playing with keyboards and other ET instruments. But plenty of top players tune JI by ear and handle both of the above problems very well.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 12 November 2004 at 12:11 PM.]

tem·per : to dilute, qualify, or soften by the addition or influence of something else