Maybe, though, if Paul Franklin decided to switch to the Universal tuning he'd start playing "deeper in the changes" and become more of a "MUSICIAN." (And maybe Maurice Anderson would finally be able to overcome the "limitations" of his instrument if he did the sensible thing and switched to a D10...)

I don't doubt that it works for you, because it works for me and many other people. And the U12 tuning has some real and concrete advantages over the standard double-neck tunings. But I don't think you can just dismiss the pro-D10 arguments with a wave of your hands.

-Travis

[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 23 December 2004 at 03:00 AM.]

I have tried a few normal Uni's and S-10 E9s and D-10s a lot more.

But I sat w down at David Wright's Bb6 and wasjust flabergasted at the power I found in 20 minutes.

I heard him and Joe Wright jamming on their different tunes S-12s and many other players on D-10s at the last two ISGC.
I heard nothing musically "MISSING" from anything D.W. played.
And I didn't see Joe Wright struggling for voicings either.

I got the imporesion that Bb6 was a C6 with E9 licks added, and the Uni is an E9 with C6 licks added.
Basically inverse aplication of the same basic melodology.

So I say it's just different, than a D-10, but in many ways more powerfully.
All your adressed gripes seem to be things that YOU can change on the guitar to suit your self,
unless you are locked into staying Vanilla Newman Uni.

I also don't see whay you can't have that low D below too in a regular Uni if you want it..
It may not be there on the classic Newman Uni,
but that doesn't mean you can't have it too.

In addition Mike Perlowin has soime interesting comments on Unis here http://b0b.com/tunings/mperlowin.html

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 23 December 2004 at 03:22 AM.]

That 'D' string is fundamental to my playing on the top neck - I'd hate to have to engage a lever or pedal just to get it in the first place!!!

It seems like the Holiday spirit went AWOL in that particular response....

I'll put it back - - there!

-I'm a luddite
-Monkey see monkey do
-It looks really boss to have two necks instead of one
-I dig hauling around more weight

Truth be told, while I have no claim to "knowing better", I do know that starting out with D10 made me feel reasonably comfortable that folks who had decades of experience had figured out what was a hell of a good place to start, in a relatively standard setup.

While I've tinkered a little bit, it is good to know that as I go along the reasons why things were adapted as they were will become scintillatingly clear from time to time.

Universal tunings just make my mind kind of swim, even now with the instrument making some kind of sense to me... I look at it, and I just can't really figure out why certain things are set up the way they are... By now, I just don't want to have to unlearn all the semi "instinctive" picking and gripping that I'm used to, with the moves involved.

------------------
Frank Estes
1978 Emmons D-10 8+7 #2441D
1968 Emmons D-10 8+4 #1234D

First, I suppose that a lot of it has to do with what my "heroes" play - D-10.

I approach my two tunings differently (and I like that):

- Using different pickups on each tuning
- Using different tuning temperments
- Using different string gauges
- Having pedals and levers that allow me to make the E9th more "E9th", and the C6th more "C6th"

I guess I see it all as one instrument, but by having both tunings, it gives me even more options: like a guitar player would using a Tele and an Arch-top with different tunings on the same gig.

Playing some slide guitar and dobro parts on Jo Dee's stuff this year, I found some things just layed better on C6th (not B6th) than I could have ever gotten from my E9th.

I think the flexibility of our instrument does give us advantages, in terms of taking it in the direction we personally want to, but it also holds it back... I mean, can you imagine if every 6-string guitar you picked up was tuned differently?

I have heard monster players on universal tunings, and on multiple tunings. I don't think that anyone can say one option is more "complete", or makes them more of a "musician". The most important thing is to pursue what interests you as a player. I just tried to share my reasons for doing what I do, and I am happy to be a steel player & a musician.

More than my $0.02,

David Spires

------------------
Steel Guitarist for Jo Dee Messina: Carter D-10 8&7 / MSA Classic D-10 8&5; Line 6 Pod XT; Jagwire Artist Series Strings; Walker Professional Players' Chair; Peterson VS-II Tuner; Goodrich Matchbro & LDR Pedal; and BJS Bars

[This message was edited by David Spires on 23 December 2004 at 09:21 AM.]

For me the reasons I play a D10 are:

1. I don't play standard E9th or C6th. I play a modified Sacred Steel tuning on the E neck, and a modified C6th tuning (I have two D strings and no low C). There are a ton of things I use all the time that you simply can't get on a uni (especially on the E neck). Which goes to show that the unis aren't truly 'universal.

2. Reducing the number and complexity of changes on each neck makes a more stable and in-tune instrument (IMHO). I play a Franklin, so there's no problem in putting as many changes as you want, but I prefer to keep the copedent down to 4-5 pedals and 5 knees per neck.

3. I have two very different types of tunings on the front and back necks. The E neck is very open and 'vanilla chord friendly'. I can do a lot of rhythm figures on it ('framming' in Sacred Steel lingo) that you just can't do on a standard pedal steel tuning. On the other hand, my C neck is very dense, very well set up for scalar playing and for making complex chord voicings. I like having the two very different tunings, and I approach each in a different way.

4, This isn't an issue now, but the reason I started on a D10 is that I learned to play from my trusty Marantz cassette player (with the 1/2 speed feature). It was useful to me to know that when I learned solos from my favorite players, I had a really good likelyhood of being able to play it in the same way as my heros (who all played D10s).

I'd go for adding a middle D to the C6, and a Low E or G# to the E9 if anything. Danny Shields had a D11 I always wanted to try out. (He tuned it to a D9 and Bb6 from what I remember, and I think with standard guage strings.)

As it is, when my Marrs gets here I've got some 'sperimenting to do with the latest Mr E tuning. I'll have verts on both necks for the first time. I'm about to say "I can't wait".

I remember those 14 string Sierras and how hard they pushed and how confusing all those strings were, and never got any farther with it. Lynn Stafford's playing was sure an inspiration on them.

Merry Xmas.

I've never played a Bb6, but I like the concept and I'm sure it's very powerful. I'm not putting down the U12 at all, I'm just trying to say why the D10 could be said to have some advantages. As I said, the U12 also has some real advantages.

I can't really address the issues raised on my own guitar, since I don't have enough strings to add the D (I like my low B string), nor do I have enough raises and lowers to add all the changes I want.

As for lamenting the "missing C# string"--it's not missing. It's string two. Try getting rid of it, adding a full tone lower to your fourth string and a minor third raise to your fifth, and tell me how well you get along. I'm sure it's playable, but I can't see a lot of people ditching string two in this way.

-Travis

I agree in theory with everything Mike Johnstone says, I do believe understanding one neck has the potential to make a studious player a more knowledgable musician. I'm just not quite there yet, but Mike sure is, he's a fantastic player on his Excel.

And like others have said, one of the grooviest things about psg is: you can do any dang thing you want with it, and if it suits YOU, it's RIGHT!

I do despise the weight of a D-12, I must confess.

I also agree the name Universal is inept. I prefer Combo; Bridge; Hybrid; Blended; Integrated is good...more thoughts, Uni-Boys?

------------------
Ron Petersen &
The Keep'n Tyme Band
Mullen Universal 12 - 1975 Session 400 - Nashville 1000

I say to each his own. As an example, Lloyd Green plays a 10 string E9th with minimal changes and few effects, but if I could get 1/10 out of my steel that he gets out of his, I would be one happy camper.

------------------
Doug
Dekley 12U 4k & 7p
2-Nash 400 & Quadraverb

[This message was edited by Doug Rolfe on 24 December 2004 at 05:56 AM.]

Williams lists a D10(8&4) at 36 lbs.
S12U(7&4) is 30 lbs.
SD12U(7&4) is 35 lbs.
D12 (8&4) is 38 lbs.

Carter has the following weights listed:
D10 (8&5) is 38 lbs, 56 with case
S12 (7&5) is 32.5 lbs, 48.5 w/case
SD12(7&5) is 38 lbs, 56 w/ case
D12 (8&4) is 42 lbs, 63 w/ case

Seems like it's hard to make the case on a weight basis for not playing a D10.

If I were to ever go to a S12, I have a feeling that I personally would lean more towards something like Reece's tuning than the E9/B6 that's on this axe. What can I say? I'm a jazz nut at heart. I gotta say, with all the experimental changes I've got on my D12, I'm kinda doubtful that this is gonna do all that I ultimately want.

All the same changes I have on my D10s are there on the S12U. The only differences from what I see besides being in the key of B as opposed to C, are the two extra strings and the string order is a bit different on the top, but with a locking knee lever it can still be viewed as two tunings or you can ignore the lock and think of it as one tuning.

I don't expect everyone to think the same just because it works for me but if I were to encourage young players or beginners I would suggest a universal tuning. It seems like the natural evolution of the instrument. Was there a big resistance to pedals when they first came out? How long it take for steelers to convert to pedal steel from non-pedal?

Am I repeating what has already been said a thousand times?

This is a great thread.

Happy Holidays everyone!!!!!

------------------
Dave Zirbel-
ZB Custom D-10 8 x 5, S-12U Kline 7 x6, Dobro Cyclops reissue, 1967 Fender Telecaster, Webb 6-14E, Fender Super Reverb
The Mother Truckers
The Cowlicks

[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 24 December 2004 at 09:02 AM.]

I am in agreement with liking Reece's tuning for your reasons.
And if you are doing experiments yourself,
there is room to do that on any S-12.
I want one w/ 8+8 most stuff on the regular left knee place,
but a few changes in the middle too like ona D-10 .
If you think about it intelegntly, I think there need be little or no loss of real functionality in the long run. Dependant on style of course.

For minory ethnic jazz tunes I can see the Uni or Bb6 as being MUCH better than a D-10,
where my mind says I need both pedal sets in the same song faster than I could EVER change necks.

But no reason to sell the D-10 of course.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 24 December 2004 at 09:06 AM.]

The ONLY thing that matters is the color of the guitar!

DZ

[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 24 December 2004 at 09:28 AM.]

They probably just tune all the thirds of all the changes flat and don't play them that way when they're not thirds just like they do on Double Neck 10s.