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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 500rd
steelin for my Lord

Now the big question is, if the improvement comes from straight up being more accurate than my halfhearted attempts to tune to a chart ever was, or if this instrument simply is more in tune when going with the "straight up" approach than anything else. I just might try to go with the chart again when/if I ever find it nessesary to get a dial-tuner (or a Peterson maybe - Quite expensive), and see if that improves anything.
Right now it's pretty sweet to my hearing, which have a reputation of being splendid.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

quote:

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Am I not in tune if I tune to 440?

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There are probably as many opinions on this as there are steelers.

In direct answer to your question, I am one of the hard-headed old codgers that tunes almost straight 440. I lower my thirds (3rd note of major chord scale) about 4 or 5 cents since, to my ears, that seems best. I suggest you not worry about opinions and advice and just tune to whatever seems best to you.

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Visit my Web Site at RoysFootprints.com
Browse my Photo Album and be sure to sign my Guest Book.

[This message was edited by Roy Ayres on 09 January 2005 at 03:49 PM.]

You might notice that some changes act differently when cold, and require less pull to get them true, or in other words, are sharp, until the strings warm up, but that's all. I keep a wrench handy for those "one set" opening or fair acts.

I've played thousands of gigs with many many bar bands, and being "out of tune" is not one of the things I'm known for.

I have other faults.

I started that way out of not knowing that there was such a thing as tuning off what's represented by tuning forks, and the generally available tuners such as the Conn Strobe, and the decades newer electronic tuners, like Korg, Boss, Seiko, Yamaha, Fender.

Then I discovered a whole bunch of people that detune parts of their chords to meet their liking. Some of them are pretty famous. Some of them are not.

I haven't found any fault with Buddy Emmons' tuning, and he's been tuning that way for twenty years. That's good enough for me.

If you want my advice, at a level of less than a couple years of playing, any time spent diverting yourself from practicing, and developing complex ways of tuning and manipulating your changes to these "beatless chords", which from what I've seen, never ends, is time you could and should better spend learning to play with deliberation, a minimum of bar shaking, and clean blocking technique. In other words learning to develop a technique for playing in tune.

All of the time, and effort on these complex tuning systems, charts and reciprocating compensationers is all in the toilet when you play on stage with a perfectly tuned piano, guitar, bass, fiddle anyhow, so do yourself a favor. Tune straight up.

If you work hard at it, you will find that your ear actually becomes trained to expect to hear the correct amount of oscillation in major chords.

It doesn't happen overnight, and is always subject to some bonehead telling you that you can't because he never took the time. It can take upwards of ten years of steady playing without diverting yourself to 'beatlessness'.

The reason, and the ONLY reason I have taken exception to these "modern tuning systems" is that I remember as a young player starting out, had Bud Charleton in the two years I studied with him told me that I had to learn all these complex detuning methods, and then have to spend most of the rest of my life trying to explain why the "E" in my C6 neck was 15 cents flat to what everybody else in the band was playing, and still swear that I was "in tune" I would have flat out given up.

Trying to convince a guitar played that his G#s are out of tune because your are 15 cents flat is a little easier, but you'll get called on it sooner or later.

I'm glad it was made "Simple" if not easy from the very beginning.

Anybody that makes this task of playing in tune so monumental, while insisting that you must tune anything fifteen cents flat, to a new pedal steel player player, just trying to get things started, to use a biblical metaphor, should tie a millstone to his or her neck and head for deep water.

In other words for poor readers, it's not fair to new players to have to spend years before their picks even hit the strings, getting things to match in systems that at best deal only with major chords, and no single notes out of the positional context, and after a couple years, to get out on the bandstand with ET instruments and realise that "something's not quite right". Having a guitar or keyboard player ask you whar "you are using for an E" on your C neck, and then trying to explain why you are in tune, and they aren't.

Tune straight up, and work on your "playing" is a lot simpler and will waste less of their lives. Then, a person can always regress and figure out where they can get away with detuning their strings to "tune out beats".

Oh, apon editing, I suppose a non pedal steel guitar would be easier to get things to "match up", but it's not a "non pedal" question. You don't have 5 or more positions in one fret to match up.

The most famous marksman used a sling and a rock though, unlike some, I wasn't there.

Ear training again.. If somebody says you can't train your ears to hear chords with the 'correct' anount of beats in "ET", they may be right. Lots of people can't. Especially if they never trained themselves that way. It does't matter how famous they are or were.

I guess there must be a lot of people that think that Buddy Emmons' recording for the last twenty years, sounds out of tune to them. Don't ask me to tell you that the earlier stuff sounded "out" to me. I have a life that I have come to appreciate.

(Slow down some tracks to 25%speed and tell yourself which of the top players sounds out of tune. Don't post it here though. You won't live through the rat packing.)

It's hard enough without telling them they have to use a minimum of 43 scale to play like Jeff Newmann, of Paul Franklin. Don't you think?

I've gotten about all the answers I need to the question.

I got them from Mr Emmons directly since it was my thread that he answered to.

Others had some pretty interestion theories, and personal asessments, but I don't have time for all the nuance. I'm surprised they seem to all things considered..

There you go Terry, you have my opinion.

Regardless of the cost.

EJL

PS.

I'm glad to see that more people that "Tune Straight Up" are coming out and admitting it.

It's really not hard to defend and explain something that's simple, no matter how much complexity is thrown at us. It's just the vehemence of it that is a little daunting, I'll have to admit.

As I've said before, 'Complexity' could have very well been one of the Seven Deadly Sins, had the other ones not worked out so well." It's very attractive and has many devoted and esteemed followers.

[This message was edited by Eric West on 09 January 2005 at 06:45 PM.]

quote:

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Anybody that makes this task of playing in tune so monumental, while insisting that you must tune anything fifteen cents flat, to a new player, just trying to get things started, to use a biblical metaphor, should tie a millstone to his or her neck and head for deep water.

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Disclaimer: No PSG references ...

I jumped at the opportunity ... in the early 80's ... to take lessons from Jerry Byrd via coorespondance.

I would complete a lesson ... send a cassette to him ... he would critique it ... send a letter back ... yada, yada, yada.

The very first lesson/song was Sweet Lei Lehua in A Maj tuning ...

I was so proud. I had made sure my strings were new, yet warmed up. I had a new Korg tuner ... made sure all my strings were perfectly in tune (straight up) ... made 20 takes ... checked the tuning after each take ... picked the best one ... and sent it.

I got his usual handwritten letter ... less than a week later ... I got it right here .

quote:

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Hi Rick, I played your cassette, but had to turn it off after the first few bars.

Your strings are so out of tune ... I can't listen to it.

Learn to tune by "Just Intonation" ... your guitar must be first and formost, in tune with itself.

Send that lesson again, once you have learned how to tune your guitar

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I was devastated ... but set off to learn what this "Just Intonation" was ... I had no idea what it was, JB didn't explain it in the letter (his video wouldn't be out for 7 more years) ... no Internet ... just the library.

Well, I figured it out ... tuned up ... and sent it off ...

Got a handwritten letter back in less than a week ...

quote:

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Hi Rick, At least you have learned how to tune up, now ......

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He launched into about a million things to fix ... and this continued for several years.

I "re-live" that moment/letter ... each time I see one of these JI vs ET threads ...

NO ONE can say he didn't play in tune with his band ... and that experience showed that he cared very much ... how his students tuned the open strings.

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Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

Whatever....

Terry

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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 500rd
steelin for my Lord

I made a big enough mistake trying to use those flimsy blue herco picks that weren't big enough to fit the end of my thumb. I did it because "that's what Buddy Charleton told me to do." I lost 24 years of good thumb control on account of it. I regret not trying to make my own until last year.

He also bought a Sierra following Mr E's suit, and I never liked them, and have always blocked using his "early pinky under" method.

We never discussed "tuning flat". I just spent a lot of time sweating and learning technique, and instrumentals.

Somewhere about 25000 words ago I noted well after I posted my own band tested, set in stone method of tuning, did I find that others tuned that way too.

Mr Emmons' comments were a total surprise, albeit a pleasant one.

So are some of these other "heretics'" coming out of the "straight up closet".

It might surprise some to know just who all really tunes that way.

The possibility that it really sounds better to their ears is still way over a lot of peoples' heads.

Oh well.

No need to make an already difficult instrument harder for the beginning player than it is. That's my only point in a nutshell.

Besides, to quote a fellow player, "If someone can get away with tuning ten cents flat to every other instrument, I figure I'm home free."

EJL

It's not that I don't know how to do it without that little gadget, I played classical winds and strings for years in the days before we ever had such lovely little toys and was considered quite decent at it at the time.

If it sounds like I'm playing out of tune it's for sure not the guitar's fault!

I have come to the opinion that tuning at or around 440 is and can be as personal as your Insrument. Once you have hunkered down into tuning pitch criterea you "Work" your Steel accordingly.

If you are in tune at the 0 fret with pedals AB down, ( A chord 440 ) then the rest is Turkey Talk..because a slight bar movement will bring home the bacon..

By the way, Rickys comment is very accurate..Loyd tunes somewhere between 441 and 442..and mostly by ear...

We don't have a piano in our band so I tune
as close to pitch as possible with PEDs AB down on the 0 fret and then tweak from there by ear..The tuner at 441 is a good starting point for reference.

I have also noticed a slight difference with new unstretched fresh strings as opposed to strings that have been on the guitar and stretched for a bit..

Ernie

The debate about JI or ET is centuries old. Generally, horns, fretless strings and vocalists approximate JI, and our ears naturally prefer JI. Fixed pitch instruments such as pianos and harps have developed ET as an acceptable compromise. Guitars are somewhere in between. While the strings are fixed-pitch, it is possible to play the scale and main simple chords in a single key JI by tweaking the tuning of the chords in that key. To change to another key for the next song, many guitarists retweak to approximate JI in that key. Other guitarists tune everything striaght up ET and don't tweak between songs (except to maintian ET).

The steel guitar is unique in that it has movable chords. So that if you tune JI to the major chords in one key, you will still be in good JI when you move the bar to another fret to play in another key. However, using lots of pedal and knee levers and more complicated chords and inversions can get you into situations where ET may work out better.

JI-tuned instruments have played in orchestras and small groups with ET-tuned instruments for hundreds of years and on thousands of recording tracks. It is something pros with good ears learn to do along the way. However, many pro guitarists and steel guitarists also tune ET. So it can be done either way. It is a matter of personal taste.

Tuning JI does not require a complicated chart. After tuning your Es straight up, tune all the strings that make up the E chord to that chord by ear. You can just listen for a good sound, but some people actually try to minimize the beats. Then tune the top two "chromatic strings" to a B chord, using the 5th string as the root. Tune the 7th string as the root to match the B and C pedals. Tune the 9th string to sound good as the 7th of the open E chord. You're done. This is the way steelers tuned for decades, before inexpensive hand-held chromatic tuners became widely available. The majority of pro steelers still use something similar to this (although some top pros tune straight up, possibly with some variation).

If you're in a noisy situation and can't hear, and have to use a meter, tune everything straight up, but tune the 6th and 3rd strings (the thirds of the E chord) 3 Hz or 12 cents flat. Also tune the 2nd string (the 3rd of the B chord) the same amount flat. Your done. If you need to tune the pedal and knee stops (rarely needed on the job), use the same principle as above, but always tune the stops to the open strings (unless you play a push-pull, which is the opposite).

If you want to fine tune your guitar to account for cabinet drop, tune your Es straight up. Press the A and B pedals and watch how much the intonation drops on the Es. Take half of the drop and always tune your open E chord that much sharp, and your AB pedal A chord that much flat. This will help, regardless of whether you are using JI or ET. It will make your tuning chart more complicated, but if you understand the principle, it is easy to remember how this affects the chart.

The bottom line is that it is a matter of taste. Try both ways, both by yourself and playing with a group. Go with whatever works best for you. After you've had some experience, do this test again from time to time, and see if you want to keep doing it the same way.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 10 January 2005 at 08:59 AM.]

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

quote:

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I beleive the band was pitched higher than I

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Regarding quartz-tuners it's worth noticing that at two occasions I've experienced that tuners that were dropped went sharp. My guess is that was probably due to the quartz-chrystal itself being compressed by the impact and thereby aquiring a higher resonance than before.

I know it's a bit off-topic, but felt like mentioning it in this context anyway.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

quote:

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But it was worked out on a particular guitar with a certain amount of cabinet drop. If your's has more or less drop, then, his chart may not work well for you. Cabinet drop can cause as much difference as the difference between JI and equal temperament (ET, or everything straight up 440). If ET sounds better for you and your guitar, then by all means use it.

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Now that makes a lot of sents to me.
Thanks for the explanation David, and thanks to all replies.
Terry

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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 500rd
steelin for my Lord

The Player that was given the JERRY BYRD award ath the National convention was Bill Stafford. Bill tunes all 14 strings straight up (tweaks the big fat 14th string a bit low). The JB award winner was picked by JB himself (so I have been told). JB has said of Bill Stafford, at the convention on stage, that if he (JB) was to play pedals, he would want to sound like BS!

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 10 January 2005 at 11:13 AM.]

"Forget havin' Jerry Byrd give me lessons ... I'm stickin' with my Korg"

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 10 January 2005 at 11:25 AM.]

If he did something I didn't agree with, like starting to block with the ring finger, I, at great peril "humored him" and went home and blocked with my 4th finger like he used to.

Once in a while I'd catch some little "nuance" of an Emmons Instrumental that was "wrong", but I never said anything. I had a hard enough time learning what he taught me.

"Correcting" Mr Charleton was something I didn't care to try to do. He wasn't, and probably still isn't God, but his kindly, worried disaproval of what I was trying to do was, to me, second only to the wrath of the real one.

I shouldn't have humored him with those blue hercos, and I honestly didn't know any better. Though his thumb was the same size as mine, the tip of mine was and is bigger. I should have said something.

I could play another 25 years, though, and I can't think of any other steel player I'd like to sound like, or have the determination of.

If'n I'd have heard or found one, anywhere along the way, I'd have found a way to take lessons from him, or her.

We all have different tastes.

Some people want to "sound like themselves", and though I'm not one of them, I appreciate their freedom to do so.

I think you engineered your question to be answered only by insulting Jerry Byrd.

I hope I have answered it without falling prey to yout intent.

"anybody else tune straight up 440?", I believe was the topic.

I do, in case I haven't mentioned it.

I can't read your tuning posts without covering my monitor or keyboard with saran wrap.. I LOVE them.

Don't ever take me wrong, or think that I wish to insult you or your diplomatic capabilities.

They approach genius..

If I ever start drinking again, and it could be any day, I will buy for a three day binge, anywhere you choose, except Gloucester MA..

EJL

Oh and DD.

One of the Bobs posted a site that had examples of both chords played ET, and JI. For some kind of "system" that proposed "automated JI" for keyboards.

In testing myself, I, with one exception chose the chords I preferred as the "ET" ones.

One of the big "arguments" here is that a lot of JIers, seem to think that nobody in their "right mind" would actualy "prefer to hear" ET, and the attendant "beats". For my part I am willing to give the "JIers" the courtesy of allowing them their preference without belittling their discernment.

They can like flat sounding chords if they wish.... BWWAAAHAHahaha..

I just don't.

Appearantly there's a growing number of people that aren't afraid to admit that they don't either.

Maybe it's something in the water...

EJL

quote:

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I think you engineered your question to be answered only by insulting Jerry Byrd.

I hope I have answered it without falling prey to yout intent.

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Eric, that is ridiculous ...

Is that straight forward enough for you.

I don't "engineer" loaded questions ... I just ask logical ones ...

If you wanted to take advantage of studing with JB ... you tuned JI ... Simple as that.

So again ...

Who would turn down studing with Jerry Byrd ... because of the way he insisted you tune your open strings?

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Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 10 January 2005 at 07:18 PM.]