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Author
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Topic: Steel refinish.. a little help from my friends.
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Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 25 February 2005 09:55 AM
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I may or may not go through with this.. not sure yet. Just a few questions..
1.. Would you guys use a chemical stripper[StripEze] on a maple/lacquer body before sanding?2.. Most of the original blue stain is GONE.. only small traces remain. Just enough to make the guitar look dirty. Will the chemical stripper take the rest of this out?.. If not how much sanding will need to be done to get to the original"stainless" maple? 3..I was thinking about giving this MSA an old Pro I kind of of look.. Just clear light maple,showing whatever natural figuring is in the wood, with a thin coat of clear poly or lacquer.. I don't want a thick coat if I can help it.. just enough to shine. Which would be preferable? 4.. I would like to get the body routed to accept the Sho Bud style inlay[I forgot what it is called] I know its available and not too expensive.. Does anyone know the width and depth of this material.?? .. This router work would be done by a TOP NOTCH hi dollar luthier.. NOT me with my big clumsy meat hooks!.. 5. The MSA fret board is silk screened on.. I would need to put a replacement board on.. I think the Sho Bud style with the two small screws are still available,and I think the MSA and Bud use the same scale length,but any advice in this area would be appreciated..also I would like to get an MSA logo but I have my doubts about ever finding one.. 6.. I was also considering just scuffing the original clear lacquer and having it shot with a solid color... I kind of like the thought of black lacquer with a bit of red piping on the neck and body... just a touch.. This sounds like a very easy alternative if it is practical.. any thoughts on this?? 7..I am thinking about just dis assembling the peg head end of the guitar,including the peg head,endplates etc and leaving the neck and pickup pocket on the guitar. I could do a really nice masking job I think, and save myself a bunch of time.. If at all possible, I do NOT want to pull all the rods,and changer.. Just don't have the ambition... I am really not as much of a perfectionist as many of my friends here are.. Just want to get rid of the "dirty" look... I don't want to make a show piece ot of it.. just clean her up a little. anyway,, I covet your opinions!!... bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 25 February 2005 at 10:00 AM.] [This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 25 February 2005 at 10:07 AM.] [This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 25 February 2005 at 10:08 AM.] |
Bill Hatcher
Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA
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posted 25 February 2005 10:48 AM
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You asked for our advice. Mine is don't do it. Just play the thing or get rid of it and find you another one. They show up here and on Ebay. All that work is not worth it in the end unless you just don't have anything else to do, have a nice workshop with a spraybooth and a lot of experience, and you are willing to keep the steel the rest of your life or sell it for a loss after you customize it to YOUR liking.
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Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 25 February 2005 11:10 AM
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BOB,you ask or opinion,SO,don't do it,is my advice,guitar is worthless after that!!and no matter what you do,people won't pay much for a guitar that been worked over like that.serious and you will be headed for a lots of work,play it or trade it.
farris |
Mark Herrick
Member From: Los Angeles, CA
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posted 25 February 2005 11:52 AM
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quote:
...guitar is worthless after that!!
So, I guess Leon Roberts beautifully refinished Sho-Bud is worthless. If you're reading this Leon, when you're finished with it, I'll be happy to take it off your hands. For free, of course, since it is now worthless... I say do it. You probably will have to remove all the mechanics, though. I would make sure of the construction of the guitar first; solid maple, laminate, etc. before applying any stripper. You might want to check with Maurice. As for getting all the stain out, you may have to use a bleaching agent. Do a lot of research on furniture refinishing on the web to get an idea of what is involved. Lots of books available, too. BTW, just stripping and then clear lacquering may not bring out the beauty of the grain as much as staining then lacquering or using a tinted lacquer. The inlay can be found at various places including:
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=664
http://www.constantines.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=127
I think it would be a fun project. ------------------
[This message was edited by Mark Herrick on 25 February 2005 at 11:56 AM.]
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Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 25 February 2005 12:27 PM
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My friends,, this is NOT a 1954 stratocaster... I am talking about removing the almost non existant dirty looking traces of stain and re clearing the guitar OR,just shooting a fresh coat of black lacquer over the original after some surface prep... I WILL NOT be doing the spraying.. It will be done by a world class local luthier who specializes in $5-10,000 handmade works of luthiery art,violins,cellos,guitars,mandolins etc. I would be doing only the finish stripping and sanding.. Do you guys REALLY think a refinished MSA with a like new undercarriage and NO pedal wear AT ALL will become worthless??? .. I respectfully disagrree.. As stated the original finish is GONE... Faded into oblivion.. NOTHING left but a dirty barnwood look underneath the clearcoat. Is THAT desirable??.. I'd rather have a nice looking refin any day.. bottom line is this... Vintage 6 string electrics -refin is NOT the way to go. Pedal steels- I think a good looking refin is worth just as much as a beat up original ANY day .. maybe more.
I would like whatever info you guys have on the questions I posted... I'm in the preliminary stages of putting a game plan together.. Ed Naylor was in the middle of helping me out with this,and now,sadly, I hear of his untimely death....anyway,any thoughts are helpful... bob |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 25 February 2005 12:39 PM
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Sure BOB,the first impression i got was it was a home project,with no knowledge.thats why i said no,now your talking of masters doing it,that a whole differet thing.Sure the guitar will be great,just like sending one to Marrs.I got one there now.But you don't ever have to ask us,if your taking it to pros.about the stripping ect..they already know how.
sorry i said anything,didn't know it was a pro job.I was thinking back yard proj.
Go for it farris |
Bill Hatcher
Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA
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posted 25 February 2005 12:50 PM
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Bob. OK so now you say a world class pro is going to do it. From your above post, I envisioned you out in the back yard with StripEze and spray cans.What is this pro going to charge you for his world class finish? I can tell you from a whole lot of experience that a nice new finish on a guitar is expensive--plus the new fingerboard and other trim stuff you are thinking of.
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Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 25 February 2005 12:56 PM
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also you are now talking new undercarriage,no wear ect.looks like you just having something to |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 25 February 2005 12:59 PM
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sounds like you just playing games with us,now you are saying new under carriage and no wear parts.
your first post said not even going to take the parts out. HAVE FUN |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 25 February 2005 01:01 PM
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Bill ..I question your somewhat snotty attitude.. It WILL BE sprayed by the best stringed instrument artist I have ever known. www.ithacastrings.com [take a look] IF I decide to do it.. I just asked some specific questions, JUST IN CASE anyone here has done this sort of refinish. I would like advice on chemical finish removers.. surface prep is my job if I want to keep costs down... The LAST thing I am in need of here is nasty comments.. Just looking for someone who can give a little advice on finish removal and how deep a faded stain usually goes,as well as thickness and depth of Sho Bud style inlay.. I have been playing and PLAYING WITH steels and guitars for a LOT of years... I'm not a big refinish guy however.. but PLEASE give me just a little bit of credit.. I'm not a sub-moron... I DO know what I can and can't do.. just collecting ideas right now.... bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 25 February 2005 at 01:40 PM.] [This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 25 February 2005 at 01:41 PM.] [This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 25 February 2005 at 01:42 PM.] |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 25 February 2005 01:53 PM
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Bob, I have refinished several Dl0s. First, you completely disassemble all parts down to the bare body topside and undercarriage. Next, using a stripper remove the finish and wash it down with water to neutralize the acid from the stripper. Next, wash the body down with lacquer thinner to wash the remaining stain out of the wood grain. Next sand with about 320 grit sandpaper then sand with 400 grit sanpaper. Wash again with water and let dry. This raises the grain. Sand again with 600 grit sandpaper. If you want to go back with blue, use blue leather dye wiping on and quickly wiping off. Of course if you wish to leave it clear you skip the dye but it will be dependent on whether you can remove all the old stain or not. Either way, you are now ready to spray the body with a lacquer sanding sealer, sand the sealer with 400 grit, apply another coat of sealer, sand with 400 grit and it should be ready for the clear lacquer coat. You should use a waterwhite sealer and finish so it will not yellow. Since you indicated that a pro luthier would route and apply the inlay I see no need to get into that other than to say the important thing is to make a fence so that it is impossible for the router to get outside the intended groove. If you are using the wood inlay and staining the cabinet it is very important to do the inlay first, sand it flush, mask it off and shoot a couple of heavy coats of sealer ON the inlay to protect it from stain soaking into it. Once the sealer in covering the inlay you can stain the cabinet, spray sealer on the cabinet, then blocksand the sealer off the inlay to expose the natural inlay being cautious not the sand thru the sealer into the stain on the cabinet. Then you can proceed with sealing and finishing the cabinet.
Jerry |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 25 February 2005 02:11 PM
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Thanks Jerry.. VERY helpful and its WELL appreciated!.. Anyone know what would be required if I opt to get it painted black lacquer instead of clear??.. Would all the old lacquer have to be removed down to bare wood??..would it be possible to properly prepare the original finish and just spray it black,or would it still have to be taken down to bare wood??? bob |
Ron Steenwijk
Member From: Greensburg,PA
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posted 25 February 2005 02:25 PM
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Just like Jerry said before you have to disassemble all parts.Been there done that.If you have some pro that can spray the body maybe he is the one that can give you some advice on sanding the body and what grit to use.But I think you can go with Jerry's advice.
What can happen?You can do the same I did once.Ruin it.....happened to me once.Took it to a man that new more about it then I did back then.He saved my sorry butt by fixing it the right way.I hope you do better then I did back then.
Good Luck.
O and about those inlays.You can order them at Constantines. http://constantines.com/ Ron ------------------
Nikaro SD10 4x6 ,Nikaro SD10 4x5,2 Peavey Ultratube 112 European Steel Guitar Forum |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 25 February 2005 02:31 PM
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Bob, if you opt to have it done by someone else, email me. Marvin Fluger of Fluger Resonators up here in Buffalo puts the most amazing hard body polyurethane finishes on steel guitars. They don't fade, chip or crack, and are UV proof. Looks like a candy apple two years after as opposed to the fading of lacquer. They are ding resistant also. If you saw one you'd forget all about nitrocellulose lacquer, and thats something coming from me. About $275.00 plus shipping. Any color you want with any inlay you want. Takes about two weeks as opposed to over a month with lacquer. He does do lacquer also.He also works with a graphics arts house that can reproduce that fret board no sweat.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 25 February 2005 at 02:32 PM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 25 February 2005 at 02:39 PM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 25 February 2005 at 02:42 PM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 25 February 2005 at 02:43 PM.] [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 25 February 2005 at 02:43 PM.] |
Bill Hatcher
Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA
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posted 25 February 2005 02:34 PM
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Bob, I question your questioning of my attitude. You ask for opinions. I gave you mine. Your opening post said nothing about having a pro do the job. My advice was no.Next thing you post is a pro will do it. You describe him as world class-I ask how much for the "world class" finish? Where is the "attitude" in that??? Man I repaired and restored guitars for 30 years. I refinished dozens of them. L5s Super 400s, 50s Strats, Teles, Pianos you name it I sprayed lot's of lacquer. I know how expensive a "world class" finish is. My last Super 400 restoration I bought was a basket case I paid $375 for. I restored it and refinished the top. I sold it on Ebay last year for $6500. I was trying to get you to tell how much you are going to pay for this finish to see if it was worth the price of doing it--that's all. Obviously you don't know. I attribute your "hair trigger" attitude thing to you being a New Yorker. You should take that as a compliment. I will respectfully refrain from offering you any more advice that you ask for, except for one more thing. The preparation of the instrument is the most important part of the refinishing process. I would never accept an instrument that a customer stripped down. Spraying the lacquer on is the easiest part of the job. You have to do EVERY step of a refinish process correctly or what you end up with will look crappy. I could have given you every detail of what to do with your guitar to get the best result, but I will just keep my "snotty" opinions to myself. [This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 25 February 2005 at 02:37 PM.] [This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 25 February 2005 at 02:39 PM.] |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 25 February 2005 02:51 PM
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Bob, if the original finish is lacquer which it probably is, you can clean it with a degreaser and a silicone remover first. If there are no imperfections or cracking or checking in the old finish you can then sand it with fine sandpaper such as 400 just to deglaze the old finish, then spray ith with black lacquer. Any crack or blemish in the old finish is more than likely going to remain visible in the new finish. Do a thin coat first and watch for silicone fish eyes. They are spots where the lacquer floats away and resembles a fish eye. If this happens you have to add a few drops of silicone fish eye eliminator to the lacquer each time you fill the spray gun. These things can leave a mess and most guitars have had silicone polishes on them at one time or another. To briefly answer your last question, you can spray black lacquer over an old finish if the old finish is free of blemishes or cracks providing it is cleaned and scuff sanded.
Jerry [This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 25 February 2005 at 02:54 PM.] |
Mark Herrick
Member From: Los Angeles, CA
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posted 25 February 2005 06:14 PM
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Did you get a chance to look at the links I posted? Most of the inlay is very thin, 1/28 to 1/32 of an inch.The stain on a close-grained hardwood like maple shouldn't go very deep. There are bleaches made specifically to get that last little bit out. On many beautiful instruments the wood isn't stained at all. The lacquer is tinted with the desired color. This gives a very nice transparent look. Putting any finish over an existing finish, without knowing exactly what that existing finish is, is risky. Best to remove the old finish first. Finishing and re-finishing are very deep subjects. Having someone describe it in a forum such as this will give you an idea of what is involved, but doing more research will give you an even better idea. Here's a place to start:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/index.asp The prep work is the grunt work, but it's what will make the final finish worth the effort. |
Leon Roberts
Member From: Tallahassee,FL USA
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posted 25 February 2005 06:18 PM
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Bob, Here is a old 70’s Sho-Bud Pro-III that was black when I first bought it. About 1981, I took everything off the body and took it to Moze’s Guitar shop in SanDiego. I gave them the two decals and told Walt to make it red. About two weeks later I picked up the body and it was the most beautiful red finish. As years passed, the red faded and the color sucked. I once again took every thing of the body. Since I was no longer in San Diego, I decided to refinish it my self. I stripped the body with “strip eze “ and wiped it down with mineral sprits until all the old lacquer was off. I progressed through sanding pretty close to what Jerry Roller laid out. I was going to stain it blue but when I saw what beautiful bird’s eye maple I had, I decided to leave it natural. Here is a picture of the finished product. This was my first line guitar until I finish my latest blue Sho-Bud. I say since it’s your guitar, go ahead and do with it as you wish.
Leon[This message was edited by Leon Roberts on 25 February 2005 at 06:24 PM.] |
Ray Minich
Member From: Limestone, New York, USA
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posted 25 February 2005 06:27 PM
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quote:
I envisioned you out in the back yard with StripEze and spray cans.
ROTFLMAO[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 25 February 2005 at 06:27 PM.] |
Bob Carlucci
Member From: Candor, New York, USA
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posted 25 February 2005 06:37 PM
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Thanks guys,I really do appreciate the ideas.. Bill, I am not looking to make enemies here and I DO respect your opinion and it is just as valid as anyone else's. I stated in the opening post that I would NOT be doing any router work, and also stated I was going to have finish the sprayed on. This was meant in my twisted way to show I would not be doing the finish work.. As of yet I don't know the cost of the luthier's work but I will soon. IF he wants to do it.If its too much, I'll just play it as is. I probably was not specific enough... anyway,snotty was not the proper word to use. I do hope you will accept my apology. I just got the feeling from you and Farris that you both felt I was a bumbling fool that was going to destroy a nice guitar.. NOT the case.. Just getting some great ideas from friends that have been there....including yourself... bob |
Bill Hatcher
Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA
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posted 25 February 2005 08:38 PM
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Cool.Edit. OK, so I will give you another opinion. I don't know if you picked black because it is a fav color or if you just want to hide everything, but a black lacquer finish is one of the hardest colors to really make look nice. For some reason, black shows up every dog gone imperfection in the wood and is just tough to shoot and look good.[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 25 February 2005 at 09:01 PM.] |
Jon Jaffe
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 25 February 2005 11:10 PM
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Bob I agree with Leon. Go ahead and enjoy yourself. You will be working with a relatively flat hunk of maple. It is wonderful to work with. Staining adjacent to an inlay is hairy as Bill has noted. If you want black I have had success with  . Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Have you considered a French polish. It was very common on musical instruments until the 20th century. It is easy to learn on flat wood. While it is softer than lacquer, it can be repaired very easily. I have applied it to several instruments (not PSGs) and have enjoyed the results, and it brings out the beauty of the wood in both looks and feel.French polish . Have fun.
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Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 26 February 2005 08:50 AM
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Using lacquer thinner is fine, but I'd advise against any of those "goopy" chemical strippers. Once these are applied to the wood, it's virtually impossible to remove all the residue they leave in the wood fibers.
If you do use a chemical stripper, 10 years down the road you'll be wondering why your finish-job didn't hold up very well. |
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