That's the beauty of the U12, you can keep the classic E9 sound while having access to most of the B6 or Bb6 stuff depending on how your tuning. I believe Bob's tuning would be B6 by lowering the E's to Eb. There's lots of discussion in the archives about this, do a search on U12 you'll find plenty to think about.

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Jerry Heath
Sierra Sessions U-12
Nashville 400
Sessions 400
Profex II

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 12 May 2005 at 08:54 PM.]

    LKL LKR 1  2  3  4  5  6  RKL RKR
F#
D#       D                         C#
G#             A
E                 F#           F   D#
B    A#     C#    C# C#    A#
G#             A     A#
F#                      F
E        D                     F   D#
B    A#     C#             C
G#             A
E                 F#    F  D#
B                       C# G#

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

On an all-pull guitar that pedal would raise the E to an F (probably out-of-tune F).

On my old Emmons Push/Pull, I had it set up so that it would raise the D# to E if the knee-lever was engaged, but would do nothing if the knee-lever was not engaged.

Click Here

Lee

[This message was edited by Lee Baucum on 13 May 2005 at 08:07 AM.]

Why not on the LKR which naturally wants to move right when you go for all those B6 pedals with the left foot?

This would make sense to me, keep my Emmons placement, and still make it useful with out losing much.

The E-F raise seems less needed in B6 mode anyway, so less leg waste.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 13 May 2005 at 02:40 PM.]

Hold LKR and simultaneously depress P5, then P5 and P6, then rock off P6, then press P7 and then P8.

Now do the same with RKL and combine with all those pedals and combinations.

THAT'S WHY.

A second reason is that you will need to combine the E to D# lever with B to Bb. A typical placement of the B to Bb lever is LKV. That works fine if E to D# is on the right knee. Also, you typically have more knee levers on the left knee. To use those changes out of the B6 positions, you'd have to have the E to D# on the right knee.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 15 May 2005 at 10:15 AM.]

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

I personally have always had the E>Eb change on RKR, ala Jeff Newmans "B6 Universal" book circa '82.

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

Here is my U12 copedant. One thing I tried to do was to keep a classic E9 setup, because of years of E9 habits, and so I can play other people's guitars. Therefore, I have the F lever where Lloyd put it, and the 2nd string D/C# lever where most D10s have it. Once I tried the 8th string F# raise on the C pedal, I couldn't live without it. I love the sound of that pull, you don't have to worry about blocking string 7 when you move to the next chord, and the pull can be tuned with the octave on string 4 while 7 is tuned as the 5th to the B root on open string 5. This copedant has a left vertical, but I played for years without that by pulling the first string behind the bar.

The B6 stuff is still in progress. The C# raise on string 2 on the E-lower lever is equivalent to having a D on top for C6 (and string one is equivalent to a G on top). That C# also works well as a scale note when the E lower lever is used for minor chords in either E9 or B6. Pedal 6 came like that from the previous owner. But it seems redundant with LKR, so I may change one of those. Someday I want to add a center knee cluster dedicated to B6.

The parentheses denote prospective additions, and the brackets denote prospective removals.

		LKL	LKV	LKR	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	RKL	RKR
		F	AB7th		A	B	C	BW	5	6	7	EL	D
1	F#		G, G#										
2	D#											C#	D, C#
3	G#					A							
4	E	F					F#			E		Eb	
5	B				C#		C#				C#		
6	G#					A					Bb		
7	F#		G, G#						F				
8	E	F		D			F#			D		Eb	
9	B				C#			C					[Bb]
10	G#					A					(Bb)		
11	E	(F)						D#	F				(F#)
12	B				C#	(A)		G#	C#				

             Sierra 14
Str        A     B     C      LKL   LKU   LKR    4     5     6     7     RKL   RKR
 1   F#                             G#    
 2   Eb                                                                         D
 3   G#          A    
 4    E               F#       F          Bb                *E            Eb    
 5    B   C#          C#                                          C#    
 6   G#                             F#                            A#    
 7   F#                                                F    
 8    E                        F                             D            Eb    
 9    B   C#     A                        Bb     C                              D
10   G#    
11    E                                         D#     F    
12    B                                         G#    C#    
13   G#   
14    E    
*P6 4th st tuned to E when P6 engaged 

I will miss the Pedal 0 Franklin change,
and want to lower G's too.
and I may switch LKV with LKR (yes the Bb's are one string off)

I am interested in comments from Uniplayers about it.

I had planned to have it come to me sooner, but the move south means it willbe delayed again. DRAT.
I wanna mess with this critter tout de suite.
DD

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 May 2005 at 12:11 PM.]

This is how it is set up now.
Not sure till I get it in my hands the final copedent,
also I will be needing some parts to add changes. It is an old Sierra so parts will be problematic.
Still good machine shops down there are REALLY cheap...

But this is good food for thought.

I want the C6 equivalent of D and G on top
so for B6 a 9th and 5th F# and B
So I may go Bill's route.
No clue where to get those low strings...

I sure wish there was one more pedal.

I see this baby as a test bed for Uni type set ups.
till I hone in on a long term one.
I really loved David Wright's MIillenium at ISGC.
But don't have the parts for this one to duplicate it.

It will also be my studio machine for trips to Bangkok for sessions when I am used to it.
A lot easier tomove than a Bud D-10.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 May 2005 at 02:06 PM.]

What about the 6th str G# down to F#? One of BE's infamous moves, right?

These two changes have been tossed around a lot and I still don't know much about them.

My U-12 is 8x5 right now, and my LKV is dropping 3 and 6 [G#'s] to G.

But I'm more interested in changing this to either of the 1st 2 moves mentioned above.
Would like to know more about what they do, or can do. Quickly, I can see some unison stuff here.

What else?

Not sure what you're referring to with the low strings, but anything is possible.

One thing I'll mention is that any string lower than the low B will be like a transatlantic cable. I use a 079 on the bottom for B, so the low G# and E will be essentially bass guitar strings. Unless your roller nuts are gauged you will find a big gap under your bar. This is exactly the reason I never went with more than 12 strings. I know Bill Stafford has been playing the 14 string E9/B6 for many years and has mastered these little technical details, but I thought I'd mention that those monster strings on the bottom can play you a double bass concerto while you're playing the upper strings unless you are careful.

Just a couple of thoughts.

If I played a 14 string I would consider putting a C# out of order, like a chromatic string, in slot 14, with a G# on 13. So the open tuning would be (high to low)
F# D# G# E B G# F# E B G# E B G# C#
and the 13th would be the lowest string

Once you get used to skipping over the last two strings, all the grips are the same as C6 and you have the C# (equivalent to the D that Terry Crisp, Buddy Emmons, and others have been using on C6 on the 7th string for years) and would raise it to D, giving you the dominant 7 for E9 -- the missing E9 string many complain about as a reason for not using a universal tuning. Having it out of order like that may seem a mite quirky, but, once you get used to it, it would be like chromatic strings on E9 -- easy to incorporate into faster scaley things.
(wonder where I can find a 14 string guitar)
(NAAAAH!)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 16 May 2005 at 07:06 PM.]

Chip, the most obvious use of the F# raise to G is to give a 7th with the A and B pedals down. This is a real necessity in rock, blues and jazz. Holding the A and B pedals, the G vertical lever and the D lever gives a pentatonic rock-blues run by alternately picking strings 3, 1, 4, 2, 5.

Some other things you get with the G and G# are:

In the open pedal position, you get a flatted 3rd or a unison major 3rd.

In the A,B pedal position you get a major 7th (G#) - useful in jazz.

In the A pedal minor position you get a flatted 5th or a unison 5th - both very useful for minor blues/jazz.

In the E-lower lever minor position you get a minor major 7th chord (the film noir chord).

For general use, when combined with the pedals and other levers, the G and G# complete a chromatic run from string 9 up to string 6, or from 5 up to 3. These chromatic stretchs are centered on the E roots on strings 8 and 4, which is useful for all kinds of melody work and unusual chords.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 17 May 2005 at 10:11 PM.]

Sometimes the best way to hide something is to put it right in front of someone.

With your info, I think I'll change that LKV
to F# to G. And with, say strings 4,5,7, you still can go from an open major to it's minor [I minor?]

This sounds good.

Thanks again, David.

Worth considering.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

		LKL	LKR						RKL	RKR
				4	5	6	7	8		
1	D							Eb		
2	E					F				
3	C						D		B	Db
4	A	Ab	Bb	B			B			
5	G				Gb					
6	E					Eb				
7	C							Db		Db
8	A			B						
9	F				Gb			E		
10	C				D			A		

I do use the minors in both open and AB down position, and find those chords essential.
If you do very minorish russian flavored things,
the basic E9 is problematic.

I do do some counbtry stuff, but don't need to reproduce exact classic licks all the time either.

I have been blending E9 onto C6 and visa versa, so To do it on one large neck seems practicable.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 17 May 2005 at 12:14 PM.]