What came to my mind was a pivoting armrest for the
right arm, with volume being controlled by a left-right
movement, and a gentle spring tension keeping it snug
up against your arm.

Bruce in Bellingham

I've known a couple of 6-stringers who used that same
technique to make sounds remarkably like a pedal
steel. Oddly, both of them played Fender Telecasters.

I'll check out the recording.

Another idea: A pseudo-armrest for the left arm that
increases the volume when pressed down (normally off)
and mildly spring-loaded to return to zero volume.

It would extend the length of the fretboard.

Bruce in Bellingham

It worked ok but I always had to have pressure on it to play. So I went back to my Rocco tone Expressor.

So when I used both feet, I didn't use the volum pedal. I also had a tone and vlume control on top on the board to handle with my little finger. That wasn't too bad. But as one poster says it did affect my picking some.....al

------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Using the right hand/arm is really a bad idea, for the
that very reason: messes up your picking/blocking.

Al,

But that knee lever idea got me thinking:
How about a double row of pedals, set up like this:

         | | | | | | | | |
        | | | | | | | | | |

With the upper row there being above the bottom row
on the pedalboard, and overlapping somewhat, like
the black keys on a piano.

There could be some duplicates and endless possible
combinations with both feet free. For example, you
could press

      |     or    | |
     | |           |

with one foot at the same time. Then use lkl or rkl to
lower the volume, and lkr or rkr to raise the volume.

?????

Bruce in Bellingham

I'd add vertical knee levers too, which would
both toggle the volume control between two settings.

One: Normal. When lkl/rkl were fully 'depressed', the
volume would be zero and lkr/rkr would bring it up
gradually.

Two: When lkl/rkl were fully 'depressed', the volume
would be zero, but 'depressing' lkr/rkr would
immediately bring the volume up to "normal playing
volume", to be set by a knob on the right endplate, and
take it up from there.

(This would make hiding the attack really easy, allowing
very realistic "bowing" sounds.)

Simply hitting either vkl would change the setting from
wherever it was to the other one.

The non-vertical knee levers would be ganged together,
moving left and right as a single unit.

The volume pedal I used to use on my electric bass
worked like the above, with a toggling foot-button
beside the pedal (on the same board). I really liked
being able to sound like a bowed string bass.

Bruce in Bellingham

That makes sense. Be hard to sing though. Reminds me
of the mouth controlled sort-of-wahwah/phase-shifter
that Tom Petty (and the Heartbreakers) used with his
six-string electric. Very expressive.

Bruce in Bellingham

I think that's actually what Tom Petty uses. But I'd really like to stay in the mechanical arena. Electronics and computers is
a whole new can of worms, and I'm a country-folkie at heart.

Bruce in Bellingham

I can see that working. A somewhat over-sized bar with
the edge of the control dial (axle aligned with the
neck) under the index finger. But there would have to
be a shielded cable running from the back of it and
that would require a connection on a track or it would
get really messy.

I'm trying to come up with a U-12 copedant for the 19
pedal/knee-levers-vol-pedal idea I described above,
using Winnie Winston's tuning on the last page of his
and Bill Keith's book. It has 12 changes, so that gives
me up to 7 duplicates to make it happen.

Looking like it'll be no problem at all, and will have
all sorts of possibilities beyond his setup.

Wonder what it would cost me to have it built? :-)

Bruce in Bellingham

Seems like it would be the two pedals connected to the
same pull, though I am anything but an expert in such
things. Whichever solution worked and was simplest.

Bruce in Bellingham

     <   <   ^   >   1   2   3   4   5   <   <   >
F#       G                               G   G
Eb                                              D/C#
G#       G               A
E    F           Eb          F#
B                    C#      C#      C#
G#   G                   A       Bb  Bb
F#                                       G   F
E    F           Eb
D            Eb                                  C#
B                    C#
G#       G               A       Bb
E    C#                                      F

Would someone tell me whether he expected to push < and
< or < and ^ or ^ and > (all on left) simultaneously or
not? I know zip about C6 tunings. Thanks.

And thanks to everyone who responded here. I appreciate
the feedback a lot.

Bruce in Bellingham

          2     4     6     8     10     12      14
       1     3     5     7     9     11      13
F#                    G     G     G      G    G
Eb                            D/C#
G#        A                       G
E            F#          F           Eb
B     C#     C#    C#
G#        A     Bb Bb             G
F#                    F     G             F   G
E                        F           Eb
D                              C#                 Eb
B     C#
G#        A     Bb                G
E                     F  C#               F

First crude attempt. 14 instead of 19 pedals. Assuming
that only one knee lever from each side and only two
adjacent pedals in Winnie's setup were depressed at the
same time, this one has every change that his does, and
a lot more.

It's 3:30 AM and I'm fried...

Bruce in Bellingham

Looks like Al Marcus' basic idea is the best one. Our
hands, arms, and feet are both plenty busy.

Almost all of us use one or more vertical knee levers,
so we are accustomed to manipulating the pedals while
using these, both with fine control.

Instead of a single bar that is sprung to return to
zero, I see two bars, each of them running half the
length of the of the span of the pedals.

Pushing up on the left one would lower the volume, and
pushing up on the right one would raise it.

Pushing up on the left one would lower the right one,
and vice-versa.

There's no doubt that more change-combinations are
possible with both feet free to use the pedals
(especially with the piano-keyboard style arrangement
I've suggested above) than by tying one up with a
volume pedal and having knee levers.

15 pedals, with 8 on the lower tier, is well within the
capabilities of any modern pedal steel manufacturer. A
lot of steels have this many knee levers + pedals.

Here is the basics of the mechanics of this 'volume
pedal', from the top:

 _____________________________________ front of instrument

  ================= =================  bars
  |_______________| |_______________|  axles (on back
                                              of instrument)

Added later:

The left and right bars would be spring-loaded to
return to a center-point (on the same plane) which
would yield a volume determined by a knob on the
changer end-plate = the average volume for whatever
piece you were playing at the moment.

While you were sitting at the steel with both heels on
the floor, they'd be about a 1/2 inch above your knees.
(adjustable for the individual)

Pushing all the way up on the left bar would drop the
volume to zero (about a 1/2 inch up from center-point),
and lower the right bar a 1/2 inch.

Pushing all the way up on the right bar would raise the
volume from average to maximum (also about a 1/2 inch
of vertical movement) and lower the left bar the same
amount.

For passages requiring fine control of the volume,
you'd keep your knees in contact with the volume bars.

Bruce in Bellingham

[This message was edited by Bruce Burhans on 19 May 2005 at 05:30 PM.]

How about a pressure-sensitive band around
our male organs? When they got harder, the volume
would increase, and vice-versa?

:-)

Bruce in Bellingham

------------------
Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Well. I asked for that, didn't I?

Though it _is_ a better idea. I recall reading about
this "Mr. Methane" act in Britain. Guy could play
classical music with his _______. First he'd pump
himself full of air from a tank...

:-)

Jerry Hayes,

Indeed.

Also time for me to hit google and see if I can find
the details about those two customized bars.

Bruce in Bellingham

Another hi-tech solution...Interesting idea. But
since physical movement would be required, why
not just a lever of some kind?

I'm really liking the dual vertical knee bars at
this point. Same basic movements as the volume
pedal and vertical knee levers.

Archie Nicol,

Probably illegal. :-)

Bruce in Bellingham

------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3

[This message was edited by db on 18 May 2005 at 06:13 PM.]

Actually, the under-arm idea _would_ mess up your
picking/blocking or bar control/movement. They all
start right there...

About the pressure plate. Those exist in other fields.
But any time you put un-necessary electronics or
complex mechanics between yourself and what you are
trying to effect, an expressiveness that comes only
with physical intimacy is lost.

Why not use solenoids and "pressure plates" to pull the
changer rods? Because you'd no longer be able to FEEL
the changers/strings.

I still can't see anything that could do the job
physically besides the knee movements currently taken
up by changer knee levers.

And this is only a viable idea because freeing up both
feet for the pedals would allow for _more_ possible
change-combos than the current norm.

Bruce in Bellingham

But I am not talking about adding any more more
"levers..wheels.. pulleys..wrist straps...".

Simply re-arranging them. It's pretty obvious that
you haven't read the other posts here and don't
care to because you are hooked on hi-tech solutions.
That's fine.

But it is annoying to be misquoted, and that is
essentially what you have done.

There is nothing "simple" about midi or lasers. They
are incredibly complex. Just because YOU aren't doing
the work and haven't looked under the hood doesn't
mean that what's in there is simple.

It's not that your ideas wouldn't work. Simply
that they belong, in my opinion, in the world of
synthesizers, not the world of the pedal steel.

Bruce in Bellingham

"...the electrical nature of the human nervous system will be the basis for direct neural control of computers. The neural interface refers to a direct data link between a computer and the human nervous system. The user can control the activities of the computer directly from nerve or muscle signals without the need for a keyboard or mouse. 'Someday it can even be possible to think a command and the computer will interpret and execute the thought command via neural interface' - as seen in the "primitive" version for Kris Rytter with her Alternative Communication System." - http://www.mala.bc.ca/~soules/media113/utopia2/kerem/utopia.htm

"... Phil Kennedy, a neuroscientist and CEO of Neural Signals Inc., has successfully fused the human brain with a computer. By strategically placing a handful of electrodes near a few good neurons, Kennedy has allowed his patients to write words on a computer screen just by thinking about it. Future patients endowed with subcranial cortical implants, believes Kennedy, will learn to use signals to control what they want. As researchers such as Kennedy are discovering, the flexibility and adaptability of the brain is astounding." - http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/disabled.html

That hand already has more than enough to keep it busy.
Good idea for guitarists wanting to emulate steel sounds,
though. They usually use their pinkies on the knob and
a lever would work better.

Bruce in Bellingham

Okay. Would you mind taking a look above at the
section of my post beginning with:

quote:

     ================= =================  bars
     |_______________| |_______________|  axles (on back
                                                 of instrument)

The left and right bars would be spring-loaded to
return to a center-point (on the same plane) which

:endquote

and telling me how you would wire up the arrangement I
describe? (using just pots and mechanical manipulations).

Since you are a trained electronics tech, this should
be childsplay for you. Mechanical interfaces of one
kind or another are necessary for almost every hi-tech
device, so you must be very familiar with them.

Thanks a lot,

Bruce in Bellingham

quote:

---

It seems the thread was talking about how to do
volume controll without using valuable pedal and knee
lever realestate. 7 + 7 and a goodrich is all I need to
play my rig.

---

With the set-up I have outlined above, (15 pedals in
two staggered rows like a piano keyboard with both
feet) one could do every change that you have, and a
WHOLE lot more.

It would be possible to push 6 pedals at once, rather
than just 2 pedals and 2 knee levers, with the knees
completely free to deal with volume control.

And that volume-controlling would not in any way
interfere with the free movement of the feet across
the pedals (although it would take practice, though
no more than learning to use the knee levers and
pedals together).

added later: Conventional, changer knee levers often DO
interfere with manipulating the pedals.

Note: Yes, I am aware that some players can press 3 or
even more knee-levers at the same time, but this would
still be only a very few combinations, whereas the one
I suggest would have DOZENS of 4-6 pedal combinations
available.

-----------------------------------------------------

Hi-tech is great where it is needed, and a burden
where it is not.

Sure. You could build a tiny, clean, nuclear device
that would do a wonderful job of removing old stumps.
But WHY? Ammonium nitrate and charcoal work just
fine and is a whole lot simpler to make. It also adds
nitrogen to the soil.

Bruce in Bellingham

[This message was edited by Bruce Burhans on 19 May 2005 at 09:39 PM.]

------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3

[This message was edited by db on 20 May 2005 at 12:31 AM.]

:-| |

Well...I've got a probe up my ___ and a machine under
my arm and a laser beam pointing at my head and two
devices in my mouth...

Really, I've had better days :-)

Bruce in Bellingham