Tuned JI by harmonics http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/ji.mp3
Tuned ET all notes to 440 http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/et.mp3
Tuned with my hybrid between JI and ET http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/tampered.mp3

Experiment 2: A real tune: Bud's Bounce
JI http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/buds_ji.mp3
ET http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/buds_et.mp3
"Tampered" http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/buds_tampered.mp3

Hope this helps give a sound to what we've been discussing.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 July 2005 at 06:07 PM.]

Checked it twice -- before and after playing the passage. I think it's just beating against the tempered piano. Sounded fine on its own, both A+F and A+B.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 24 July 2005 at 06:17 PM.]

I tune
E's to ET with the A and B pedals down -- about 2-4 cents sharp on my Emmons and Bud and 4-6 cents sharp on my Fessy after you release the pedals. Compensates for cabinet drop and shifts the tuning a bit sharp, to avoid the extreme deviations in thirds and sixths w/JI.

G#'s 1Hz / 4 cents flat of ET,
C#'s 2Hz / 8 cents flat,
F's 3Hz / 12 cents flat
A's and B's to ET (or sometimes a little sharp to match the E's better).

F#'s to ET if I'm using compensators, then tune the compensated note about 2Hz / 8 cents flat. If not using compensators I split the difference, about 1-1.5Hz / 4-6 cents flat.

Most everything else ends up at 440.

Tuning is a personal thing, like how you dress or comb your hair. It contributes to a player's personality like the brand of guitar or amp or tone preference.

It's kinda like your amp settings. Different players use different settings. It helps determine their musical personality, just like how one tunes.

That's my take on it.

Thanks for the nice comments.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 24 July 2005 at 06:03 PM.]

It's your playing that makes it either way.

I don't remember if it was you that posted Ashoken Farewell a while ago, but I fouund it to be totally great. If you can find it, or if I can, it should be posted. Your tone center is beyond match that I've heard.

I'm plugging the Podxt in all the time this weeek, and will just keep it running while I practice. I have tons of HDD.

I WILL post what I come up with with no reverb.

( just kidding about the 'no reverb')

Great.

with piano http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/ji_w_pno.mp3

and without http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/ji_no_pno.mp3

the third may be a teeny bit flat, but it's the piano that creates the dissonance. Exactly why I stopped tuning JI.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Give it a listen. It's on my tunes page. Let me know what you think. I'll try to dig the other version up if you'd like.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

------------------
1990 ,Emmons Legrand II 8 and 4,1994 Legrand II 3 and 5 Peavey LTD Peavey Session 400 Ibanez analog delay

[This message was edited by Willie Crisel on 24 July 2005 at 09:35 PM.]

On Bud's Bounce, your tampered tuning sounded sweetest to me. But neither of the others sounded very bad. This could simply be a case that you are best doing it the way you are most use to.

Now to quibble a little. Like b0b, I don't hear your JI as being what I am use to (I don't tune pure JI, but I tune closer to JI than your tampered system). I think we need to hear all the chords alone, before hearing them with the piano - just to be sure we are all on the same page as to what JI is. I tune JI either by listening to the chords and individual intervals, or by a chart of pure JI intervals, setting the intervals by watching a meter. I am not familiar with how to tune JI by harmonics. Could you please explain exactly how that is done and why it should work?

To best deal with cabinet drop at the nut, one can split the difference between the pedal up (E chord) and pedal down (A chord) positions. So for example, if your E strings drop 8 cents when the A and B pedals are pressed, you would tune the Es 4 cents flat of 440 with the pedals pressed, and they should return 4 cents sharp when the pedals are released. Then either position is within 4 cents of 440 (this works with JI and ET). I don't see the point of tuning one position to the meter and letting the other one go where it may. We have to play in both positions. Also, because the steel is playing in higher octaves than A-above-middle-C (the 440 standard), you need to "stretch" everything about 8 cents sharp of 440. I believe these changes will get rid of some of the flatness with JI at the nut; but this might introduce more sharpness to ET, and possily also your tampered tuning.

By the meter (ignoring stretch), the tonic and 5th of the E chord should be one-half the cabinet drop sharp of 440, and the 3rds should be 14 cents flat of the tonic and 5th; or from 440 should be 14 cents flat minus half the cabinet drop (e.g., 10 cents flat, if the cabinet drop of the Es is 8 cents). For the A chord, the tonic and 5th should be half the cabinet drop flat of 440, and the 3rds should be 14 cents flat of the tonic and 3rd (or 14 cents flat of 440 plus half the cabinet drop; total of 18 cents flat of 440 if the cabinet drop is 8 cents).

b0b, I don't understand why you would tune the C# (A pedal stop) to G# (open string 6). The C#, as the 3rd of the A chord, should be tuned 14 cents flat of the open E strings (the 5ths of the A chord), with the pedals down. The A roots of that chord are the B pedal stops, which should be tuned to the same thing as the E strings, with the pedals down.

Finally, The C# roots of the A/F postion are the A pedal stops. As the 3rds of the A chord, the C# will be 14 cents flat of 440 plus half the cabinet drop (total of 18 cents below 440 in the above example). The G# on the open string 5 will also be 14 cents flat plus half the cabinet drop, because that was the 3rd of the E chord. So the tonic and 5ths of the C# chord should match, even though one is pedaled and one is open. The F pedal stop is the 3rd of the chord, and so should be 14 cents flat of the C# and G#. That whole chord will be hopelessly flat at the nut, but the intervals should be the same as in the E and A chords.

Maybe this is how you tuned things, but one would have to hear the chords without the piano to know for sure. In the E and A chords, the tonics and 5ths should be identical for JI and ET. Only the 3rds should sound different. If that is not the case, then something is not exactly right.

No matter what, Larry has certainly done a big service. Doing all that retuning is tedious and time consuming.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 25 July 2005 at 12:14 AM.]

I'd find it hard to tell a dime's worth of difference between the ET and the tampered tuning, but I'd say in both sections/examples, I find your tampered tuning a little 'sweeter', as somehow the character of both/all the instruments is more differentiated. Ashokan Farewell is a good case in point, and to me, ensemble playing is the point in this thread.

Like b0b, I tune my A pedal to the open 3rd string (I want that perfect minor or 6th chord, right?). But that C# will also form a perfect major third with the A on the 6th string, B pedal down, which was tuned to the open E string.

I thought I'd post the cent/hertz chart for JT intervals which I made two years ago and cleaned up today at http://homepage.hispeed.ch/updowncat/cents_hertz_chart.xls You'll find all the numbers there DISREGARDING cabinet drop compensation (which you'll have to add if needed). This is not a PS tuning chart, but an interval chart. Still, the numbers are all there. There's a chart for single intervals, and for two intervals added.

One remark regarding the tritone in the middle. The JT tritone can have several ratios, but only the ET tritone maintains the symmetry of the chart. Actually, I do tune my Bb lever straight.

Hans

[This message was edited by Hans Holzherr on 25 July 2005 at 06:36 AM.]

with piano http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/ji_w_pno.mp3

and without http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/ji_no_pno.mp3

Here's what I'll do. I'll be happy to re-record the JI examples using whatever version of JI you recommend. It's been so long since I've tuned harmonically I may have forgotten how. So, Hans, which of the temperaments from your XL sheet do you want me to use? Tell me how to tune and I'll redo the JI stuff. I really believe that a lot of it is the temperament on the piano. Without the pno it sounds pretty good to me.

That said, I've used semi-meantone or tampered or whatever you care to call it for so long, BOTH ET AND JI THIRDS SOUND OUT OF TUNE TO ME.

Also, Dave, I would not go along with calling a tuning JI if the tonic is not at A=440.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 July 2005 at 07:15 AM.]

quote:

---

Also, Dave, I would not go along with calling a tuning JI if the tonic is not at A=440.

---

That works for the A and E chords. The tonics of those chords would both be 440, except for cabinet drop. But it can't work for the C# chord, unless you detune the A and E chords and tune the whole guitar just for that C# chord for this experiment, which would seem to have no practical value. Because the A pedal C# has been tuned flat of 440 as the 3rd of the A chord, there is no way it can be 440 as the tonic of the C# chord. If the A pedal is tuned to JI 437 for the A chord, it will be 437 as the tonic of the C# chord with the A pedal and F lever. Both the tonic (C# on the A pedal) and the 5th (G# on open strings 3 and 5) will be 437, as the 3rds of the A chord and E chord, respectively. The F lever stop is the 3rd of the C# chord and should be tuned 14 cents (3 Hz) below the C# and G#, or 28 cents (6 Hz) below 440. Thus, the intervals will be proper JI, but the tonic will be 437, not 440. I don't see how it could be done any other way, even with compensators. You could put a compensator on the F lever for the 6th string G#, but what would you do about the A pedal stop, which forms the tonic of the chord? Therefore, the point of tuning JI is to get the intervals right, not necessarily to have the tonic directly over the fret, which of course plays havoc with the C# chord at the nut.

When you start adjusting for cabinet drop, you will move some tonics away from 440, whether you tune JI or ET. Tuning JI by the intervals, and ignoring where the tonic is, can get the intervals right on these 3 chords regardless of cabinet drop. Tuning by ET without adjusting for cabinet drop will have some of the intervals in the A and C# chords off (from ET intervals) by the amount of cabinet drop. If you adjust for cabinet drop, you can get the proper ET intervals with all three chords, but some or all of the tonics will not be 440 (depending on whether you tune to 440 with the pedals up or down, or whether you split the difference as I described). You have to choose whether you want proper intervals, or proper tonics, you can't have both (unless there is no cabinet drop).

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 25 July 2005 at 08:23 AM.]

That's not a real piano, is it? I played in a trio with upright piano and bass for four years. I was tuning pure JI at the time. The only thing that sounded out of tune was the occassional open string.

quote:

---

The main point of this is that we should not be trusting this to our ears.

---

quote:

---

Did you listen to the two new clips in my last post b4 this one? Do they sound out of tune without the piano? They don't to me, by themselves and then sound very sour with the ET keyboard.

---

Dave, the fifth is really much closer to +2 cents than +1.5. So, why not go all the way and do it according to the numbers? You get truer intervals that way. BTW, I currently don't compensate for cabinet drop. On the upside, the open C# chord is so much detuned that I can fret it just right of the nut. This works best with gauged rollers.

quote:

---

That works for the A and E chords.

---

If I'm reading the chart correctly, with E as the tonic, there are two choices for a couple of the notes. I don't want to waste time tuning to an inappropriate version of JI (again )

I propose the following (if I'm reading the chart correctly):
E 0
F -18
F# 4
G 16
G# -14
A -2
A# 0
B 2
C 14
C# -16
D 18
D# -12
E 0

Does that work? I'll tune to whatever you guys suggest, rather than harmonics.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 25 July 2005 at 09:51 PM.]

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

quote:

---

I propose the following (if I'm reading the chart correctly)

---

1) open position E chord(s):
   E    0   440 (...+ cab. drop compens.)
   G# -14   436.5
   B   +2   440.5
   D   -4   439
   C# -16   436
2) open position B chord(s) 
   (white-blue striped charts, fifth PLUS
   chord intervals):
   B   +2   440.5 (already tuned)
   D# -12   437
   F#  +4   441
   G# -14   436.5 (already tuned)
3) pedals AB A chord(s)
   (white-blue striped charts, fourth PLUS
   chord intervals):
   A   -2   439.5 (fourth of E)
   C# -16   436 (already tuned)
   E    0   440 (already tuned)
   F# -18   435.5 -> compensator!
4) pedals AF C# chord    
  (white-blue striped charts, sixth PLUS
   chord intervals):
   C# -16   436 (already tuned)
   F  -29   432.5
   G# -14   436.5 (already tuned)
5) tune 4th string D# to D# 2nd string
6) tune 2nd string D to 9th string D 
   (octave) (?.... I do, but I have a comp. 
   on the F# -> -18, again)
7) tune Bb to 440 

Problem: Major chord with D as tonic needs a compensator for its major third F# (-> -18). But then the B (sixth of D) is out of tune.... bar slant....?

BTW, tuning with harmonics is more accurate than tuning with a tuner.

And BTW, major whole and minor whole are both variations of a whole tone.

Hans

[This message was edited by Hans Holzherr on 25 July 2005 at 12:37 PM.]

Now I'm going to take that and adjust it for cabinet drop and stretch tuning. I am going to put Hz in these tables rather than cents difference. The reason is that in working with intervals it is sometimes confusing as to whether one means cents difference from A=440, or cents difference from reference pitch of the root of the chord. Because of cabinet drop and the F pedal problem, they will not always be the same. When you see the Hz number, you know it is in reference to absolute A=440, and not relative to the chord root. Also, many meters are just easier to read in Hz. My Boss TU12 only has a mark every 5 cents.

Larry said his Fessy has 4 to 6 cents drop on the Es when the A and B pedals are pressed. I am going to round that up to 8 cents or 2 Hz, and split it between the up pedal and down pedal postion. Stretch tuning would put the reference pitch for the E on string 4 at about 8 cents (2 Hz) above 440. Since I already rounded up the cabinet drop, I'm going to round the stretch down to 4 cents or 1 Hz. Together with the cabinet drop this puts the Es at 442. This, not entirely coincidentally, is what Paul Franklin tunes to. So let's go with it and see what happens.

E9 JI by the book (assuming no cabinet drop or stretch):

			F	A	B
1	F#	440			
2	D#	437			
3	G#	437			440
4	E	440	434		
5	B	440		437	
6	G#	437			440
7	F#	440			
8	E	440	434		
9	D	444			
10	B	440		437	

JI adjusted for 2 Hz (8 cents) cabinet drop on the Es, with A and B pedals pressed:

			F	A				F	A	B
1	F#	441			
2	D#	438			
3	G#	438			439
4	E	441	433		
5	B	441		436	
6	G#	438			439
7	F#	441			
8	E	441	433		
9	D	445			
10	B	441		436	

JI adjusted for cabinet drop, and stretched 1 Hz (4 cents):

			F	A	B
1	F#	442			
2	D#	439			
3	G#	439			440
4	E	442	434		
5	B	442		437	
6	G#	439			440
7	F#	442			
8	E	442	434		
9	D	446			
10	B	442		437	

Now let's give the same treatment to ET. Actually I'm not sure how to do this. I have never heard an ET tuner discuss how they handle cabinet drop. The first chart below will be ET by the book, ignoring cabinet drop. Every string and every stop is simply tuned to A=440. In the second chart below, 2 Hz (8 cents) cabinet drop is assumed on the Es. Tuning all the open string 1 Hz sharp, and all the pedal and knee stops 1 Hz flat splits the difference. This means the intervals are equal with the pedals up or down. But in neither case is the reference exactly 440. But in both cases it is within 1 Hz (4 cents) of 440, and so below the bench mark of 5 cents that is considered negligible. In the final table I added 1 Hz (4 cents) stretch, which is considered a standard way of doing ET.

ET by the book (assuming no cabinet drop or stretch):

			F	A	B
1	F#	440			
2	D#	440			
3	G#	440			440
4	E	440	440		
5	B	440		440	
6	G#	440			440
7	F#	440			
8	E	440	440		
9	D	440			
10	B	440		440	

ET adjusted for 2 Hz (8 cents) cabinet drop on the Es:

			F	A	B
1	F#	441			
2	D#	441			
3	G#	441			439
4	E	441	439		
5	B	441		439	
6	G#	441			439
7	F#	441			
8	E	441	439		
9	D	441			
10	B	441		439	

ET adjusted for cabinet drop and stretched 1 Hz (4 cents):

			F	A	B
1	F#	442			
2	D#	442			
3	G#	442			440
4	E	442	440		
5	B	442		440	
6	G#	442			440
7	F#	442			
8	E	442	440		
9	D	442			
10	B	442		440	

quote:

---

I propose the following (if I'm reading the chart correctly):
E 0
F -18
F# 4
G 16
G# -14
A -2
A# 0
B 2
C 14
C# -16
D 18
D# -12
E 0

---

 
5th  -14
3rd  -18
root -16 

------------------
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

[This message was edited by b0b on 25 July 2005 at 01:16 PM.]

quote:

---

E9 JI by the book (assuming no cabinet drop or stretch):

			F	A	B
1	F#	444			
2	D#	437			
3	G#	437			440
4	E	440	433		
5	B	442		437	
6	G#	437			440
7	F#	444			
8	E	440	433		
9	D	444			
10	B	442		437 

---

Hans

[This message was edited by Hans Holzherr on 25 July 2005 at 01:44 PM.]

Please ignore the JI stuff until we conclude exactly how it should be re-tuned. I haven't tuned harmonically in over 20 years and no longer 'hear' JI as I once did.

I will use

note  ratio  cents
D#    15/8   -11.7
D      9/5    -3.9
C#     5/3   -15.6
C      8/5   -13.7
B      3/2    +2.0 
A#    45/32  -10.2
A      4/3    -2.0
G#     5/4   -13.7
G      6/5   +15.6
F#     9/8    +3.9
F#    10/9   -17.6
F     25/24  -29.3
E      1/1     0 

and re-record both the song and the drone notes with piano and steel just to get the JI thing right.

Again, my apologies for not getting the JI offsets correct. I'll repost the songs ASAP.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 July 2005 at 04:41 PM.]

The JI one sounds pretty sour everwhere. The ET and TT are a little better (pretty close, to be honest), but not where I think they should be.

Maybe my ears are just to picky.

At any rate, thanks Larry...I know that was a lot of work for you. If I could master this making sound files thing, I'd try my own hand at it.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 25 July 2005 at 04:54 PM.]