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Author
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Topic: B pedal on a push pull
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J Fletcher
Member From: London,Ont,Canada
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posted 14 August 2005 03:19 PM
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I'm looking for some tips on setting up the B pedal on my S10 push pull Emmons. The travel needed for the high G# to A raise is much longer than for the low G# to A raise, and today I set it up with the high G# pull rod in the hole closest to the axle, on the raise finger, and the hole farthest from the axle for the low G#. I also have a 1 1/4 inch equalizing spring on the low string pull rod. Everything is stopping at the right time, fingers against the body, and pedal stop, but I'm not crazy about the pedal feel. It's a bit mushy.
I'm curious about how other push pull players have this pedal set up. Maybe I'm better off with a longer pedal throw, and putting the high G# pull rod in the middle hole on the raise finger. Any tips would be appreciated....Jerry |
jim milewski
Member From: stowe, vermont
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posted 14 August 2005 03:42 PM
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probably not common, but I don't use the springs around the pull rod near the collar, I take time to make sure the bellcrank stops just a tad after the fingers hit the body, eliminating the springs got rid of the mushy feel, but the holes you chose on the fingers are the right ones. |
J Fletcher
Member From: London,Ont,Canada
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posted 14 August 2005 03:58 PM
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Thanks for the response Jim. I guess the high G# starts to raise before the low one without the spring. Doesn't the feel of the the low string raise engaging after the high string bother you? Are you using a wound low G# by chance?...Jerry |
Bruce Hamilton
Member From: Vancouver BC Canada
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posted 14 August 2005 05:31 PM
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I use a more subtle arrangement. I have both pulls hooked into the middle hole and an half inch spring on the lower G#. There is no mushiness in my B pedal. However if you have a really aggressive short setting on your
A pedal this may not have a balanced feel when you engage both pedals. Give it a try you may like it. |
jim milewski
Member From: stowe, vermont
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posted 14 August 2005 07:50 PM
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J, maybe a little "hitch" as the 6th string engages, but not noticable to me, I use a .020" plain |
J Fletcher
Member From: London,Ont,Canada
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posted 15 August 2005 07:23 AM
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It would be nice if there bell cranks with more than one hole for the pull rods on these guitars.
If both pull rods are connected to the middle hole on the raise finger, doesn't the low G# reach "A" way before the high G# does? It would on my guitar unless the low string engaged way after the high string. I'm using .011 for the 3rd string and a .020 for the 6th string, George L's Stainless Steel strings.
I can appreciate that there are pecularities with these guitars, and that I have to live with them, just looking for some tips for tweaking the set up.
The guitar sounds great, it's a 70's fatback, mica body, wood neck with the bolt on changer. Had it for two years now....Jerry |
Bruce Hamilton
Member From: Vancouver BC Canada
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posted 15 August 2005 08:29 AM
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The pull on the lower G# will reach the end of travel sooner so you have place the collar that pulls farther away from the changer. When the changer fingers hit the body of the guitar at the same time then it is in the correct position. As there is difference in the amount of travel push pulls can have a spring on the lower G# to mask the feel when it is engaged. The pedal should feel smooth all the way through it's travel. By the way a pedal can feel mushy if the spring is too long for the pull. If you are using one and a half inch spring on this pull you might try cutting it at least in half. [This message was edited by Bruce Hamilton on 15 August 2005 at 08:30 AM.] |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 15 August 2005 09:22 AM
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Using springs can be mushy -- especially, as was pointed out, if the spring on the shorter pull is longer than it needs to be.No springs can be clunky. You feel the shorter pull kicking in. On a knee lever this is more of a problem than on a pedal because of the feel, but it can fell funny on a pedal. My guitar is a U-12, so I have three pulls on my B pedal and this is even more of a challenge for reasons that aren't germane to this discussion. Suffice it to say, I've tried it with and without springs and prefer a little mush. A push-pull will never feel like an all-pull guitar. If that's what you want, you should play an all-pull. I personally like the long throw on the A pedal since half-pedaling is a way of life without tunable splits. A little longer, slightly mushier feel on the B pedal is not a big problem for me. YMMV. If you desire that push-pull sound, you will tolerate little mechanical boogers here and there. Once they are adjusted like you want them, they stay adjusted and you get used to them. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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Bobby Bowman
Member From: Cypress, Texas, USA
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posted 15 August 2005 10:33 AM
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J,
I'm going out on a limb here. My guess is that the "mushy" feel is not necessarily from the "shock spring", but probably more from the pedal stop screw not making contact on the pedal stop bar at the same moment that the raise fingers are making contact with the cabinet body.
BB------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
http://www.bobbybowman.com |
Tony Glassman
Member From: Roseburg, Oregon, USA
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posted 15 August 2005 05:54 PM
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I agree w/ Bobby Bowman, the mushiness is probably due to a maladjusted pedal stop. Re springs: try using/cutting a very short [1/8"] spring @ the 6th string. Just long enough to cushion the abruptness of the 6th string engaging, but not long enough to really affect pedal travel. That said, I've dumped most my springs as it keeps things simpler. The inherent tone of a P/P, more than offsets it's mechanical idiosyncracies. For me, it's much better to play a great sounding, slightly stiff axe, than a mechanically perfect, so-so sounding one. |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 15 August 2005 06:55 PM
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Jerry said, in his original post quote:
Everything is stopping at the right time, fingers against the body, and pedal stop, but I'm not crazy about the pedal feel. It's a bit mushy.
I still believe that springs are spongier or mushier or whatever you want to call it -- than no springs. The mush is just the spring compressing.------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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J Fletcher
Member From: London,Ont,Canada
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posted 16 August 2005 07:19 AM
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Thanks for all the replies. I would like to know how these came set up from the factory. Which finger holes were used, and how long the springs were. I think, as Larry said, the mushy feel is the spring compressing. I don't expect miracles in the pedal feel, just want to tweak it to the optimum. After a few days playing it like it's currently set up, I'm getting accustomed to the B pedal's feel. Originally I had a short spring on the low G# rod, and used the 3rd hole on the finger, counting from the axle, and on the high G#, I used the middle hole on the finger. The feel of the low string engaging after the high string started to annoy me, which is why I made some changes. I'll live with the current set up for a bit, and perhaps try some changes later on. At this point, both strings are starting to pull at the same time, and ending at the same time. That was what I was originally looking to do, but naturally the pedal feel has changed. Appreciate all the comments...Jerry |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 16 August 2005 12:13 PM
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I removed the compression springs on my PP, I didn't like the mushiness.
I made new bellcranks of varying height to get strings 3 and 6 moving together, and also put helper springs on all raises, to greatly improve the playability.
There is very little physical effort needed to play my PP, which means more concentration can be put into the music.
R B |
J Fletcher
Member From: London,Ont,Canada
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posted 17 August 2005 02:02 PM
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richard, the replacement bell cranks sound like the way to go. Wonder if anybody makes bell cranks with multiple holes for push pulls?Seems like something that a lot of people would be interested in. Effort used to compress a spring is wasted effort, and it just makes it harder to press the pedals. Now why didn't the Emmons company do that?....Jerry |
David Mullis
Member From: Rock Hill, SC
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posted 17 August 2005 02:50 PM
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My guitar doesn't have any helper springs but it does have the springs on the short pulls and it doesn't feel mushy at all. It also plays very easy. On a push pull, you have to decide if you would rather have quicker (and stiffer) pedal action, or, slower and easier pedal action. What dictates this is which holes you attach the hooks to on the raise finger. I use to think I liked the feel of no springs until I had my guitar re-worked. IMHO, if it's done right, you won't even know the compression springs are there. |
Willis Vanderberg
Member From: Bradenton, FL, USA
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posted 18 August 2005 06:37 PM
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If all else fails....check with Mike Cass or, Tommy Cass is closer to you I guess.. Bud |
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