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Author
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Topic: understanding your steel
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Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 25 August 2005 10:16 AM
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I am of the thinking that I should spend most of my time on TOP of the Steel.I am smart enough to know the legs point down... I have no earthly reason to take my Steel apart.it is a late 90's Carter D10 9+8 and the only reason I would even contemplate going underneath for anything major would be if there was a problem. Could I ?..yes..
Should I ? No The way I see it is that if I need to perform a repair I have 20 strings, a few zillion mecanical connections and 20 fingers with all the springs and stuff to look at and study before I perform major surgeory. When my Sho-Bud Pro III required a finger change/swap..I just turned it over, studied it , made a plan and just did it.. Understanding how it works is clearly a good thing..but being an expert at building repairing is a different issue. Should you go thru the Steel every 6 months or so and insure things are clean,tight and secure ? Yes of course. |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 25 August 2005 12:54 PM
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On the drawing board today,Mechanics have engine stands!! and i am tired of trying to work on steels on a table!! So,i've got several ideas in mind at this time. ONE,with guitar all set up,pick guitar up about 6" walk forward and slide steel in a table rack.needs to go around enplates and lock. pull a pin and rotate over and over.
leave all open to where work on top or bottom. even strum or pick it,and adjust it. |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 25 August 2005 12:56 PM
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On the drawing board today,Mechanics have engine stands!! and i am tired of trying to work on steels on a table!! So,i've got several ideas in mind at this time. ONE,with guitar all set up,pick guitar up about 6" walk forward and slide steel in a table rack.needs to go around enplates and lock. pull a pin and rotate over and over.
leave all open to where work on top or bottom. even strum or pick it,and adjust it.
ends must be open so as to pull rods,and change settings ect. also changing tuner keys, simple ect.can use with legs on or off. Dang i have gave away a million dollar idea. farris |
David Wren
Member From: Placerville, California, USA
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posted 25 August 2005 02:50 PM
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I got my first "new" steel in 1970, up to that time I had been using a very old 8/2 Shobud D10, which I never worked on.Got my new MSA and in two days had completly changed the copendant.... and continued to experiment with it for the next couple years. This was pretty much what every steel player I knew was doing... as "standards" happily were still be developed... even for tablature. This was great, and allowed a lot of experimenting... but that time is kinda gone, and I'm not sure how many younger steel players will rip into the bottom side of their steels. Also, newer, more compact, lighter, and more complex setups have made the task a little more challenging for the beginning steeler. But I have often even hand made the parts I lacked, and even built a Left "Forward" knee Lever... I would encourage folks to do some of this, but start small in attempting changes. It is an amazing instrument, is it not? ------------------
Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 25 August 2005 03:10 PM
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Great DAVID,thank you for shareing that. Yep thats one mistake many people make!deciding to build a steel to start with. we need to learn on a steel,messing around like you said,build a extra knee pedal is great way to learn.study it out,buy a pedal kit or build the pcs. don't have to have a lots of tools. Hacksaw,pliers,drill,screwdrivers ect. Old steels are so much fun to experiment with.
I like the idea of buy a clunker,and have a ball!!!yep,thats just me!!need some alum.stock flats and angle.Enjoy as you go.
we use to pull the motor out of a auto,not having a clue what we were doing.all in learning. farris |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 26 August 2005 12:16 PM
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Today i be shacking like a leaf!!!I tore my black professional down.IT played so sweet,but the keys origionals grovers were coming apart. so i said,gotta do it!!i'm replacing them with the grover 18:1s. oh how sweet they are!! after i took the strings off the key heads were just flopping. BE sure,if you have the old type keys to take the strings off and shake them, if they are loose and seperating like mine,NOT gonna stay in tune proper. only way to change them proper is to take the key heads off,also clean at that time and assemble afterwards.well, i want to change some pulls while i'm at it so here goes.may have to send it to RICKY, to reset it HA HA, hope not.!!!!!!!!!! farris |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 26 August 2005 03:47 PM
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Well,one more post,be prepared for the hangups you will run into!!changing grover keys 18:1 second time i've done it,and the keys will not tighen down enough when you screw the inside collar in. also the screws are wood screws and toooo small to fit on the sho-bud key heads. I used the old screws or could get new one the size of the origionals. also,i used the old washers with the new ones to make it thicker. grinding the collars ect.doesn't do much good, they are not threaded all the way like the old ones. and the old collars are differet size. Thats what i love,got to overcome the problems. also mark your key heads,back and front,usually doesn't matter,but mine don't line up the same. Mounting holes are enlarged on the back. also if you have gaged rollers could make a difference. Well, i'm taking one pc at a time out of old sho-bud,welding looks like a DIRT DOBBER did it. i'm grinding out and rewelding each pc. now, last but not least. THE JOHN COOP PARTS are not that way,they are PERFECT.
Welding is top notch, and machinist is Number one also. I look at my old Professional and want those parts from John so bad, gotta save some money and quit buying guitars. start working on what i got huh.hahahhahhaahhahahha farris |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 26 August 2005 04:54 PM
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My Fender, yep. I don't care what "modernist" steelers think, the '63 and later ones are superbly designed and so easy to work on it should be illegal.My MSA? Yikes. It scares me. |
Mike Hoover
Member From: Bryant, Arkansas, USA
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posted 26 August 2005 05:23 PM
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I own 2 Fords, thought this qualified you.
I wish there was some information on the web that would help you set up one. Carter site (i think) has some good illistrations of how the mechanics work.Mike |
Carlos Polidura
Member From: Brooklyn, New York, USA
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posted 26 August 2005 08:32 PM
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HI FARRIS,
I THINK EVERY STEEL PLAYER SHOULD KNOW THEIR STEEL GUITAR (S)... "HOW THEY WORK" AND "WHAT MAKES IT WORK". I DO WORK ON MY OWN GUITARS AND MAKE ANY NECESSARY CHANGES, ADJUSTMENTS EVEN REPAIRS IF NEEDED.
IN MY OPINION, IF I CAN PLAY IT WHY NOT LEARN TO FIX IT?
THANKS
CARLOS |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 27 August 2005 01:39 AM
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Farris,
If you want to see a 'plumbers nightmare', I have posted pictures of my heavily modified (by Heath Robinson) ZB.
 
 [This message was edited by richard burton on 29 October 2005 at 03:34 AM.] [This message was edited by richard burton on 29 October 2005 at 03:37 AM.] |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
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posted 27 August 2005 04:27 AM
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Hmmm... very interesting and innovative, Richard. Like your ZB, you must be stranger than you look; both appear to be perfectly normal on the outside.
How it works inside must be more of a dream come true than a nightmare. I like it. |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 27 August 2005 05:45 AM
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Richard,!!!!
I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY!!!My hat is off to you my friend!!
And we think we got troubles huh!!! hahahaa
Now i just got to ask.HOW DOES IT SOUND AND PLAY?? Probaly got KILLER TONE???
thank you Richard for that. farris |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 27 August 2005 06:51 AM
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Farris,
Yes, in the right hands it does have killer tone !!
I've got some photos of my Emmons push-pull going up soon.
Charlie, you're right, never judge a book by its cover 
R B[This message was edited by richard burton on 27 August 2005 at 06:55 AM.] |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 27 August 2005 09:41 AM
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Why do little jobs turn out to be a pain??Changing keys on the old Professional sho-bud. putting the 18:1 grovers on.
Ok get ready for the unexpected!!
old keys are standard american,new keys are metric, need both in wrenchs.
Screws as i already posted,new screws won't work,they are to small,and more of a wood screw. so use the old screws,hahaha beware the heads are a little tooooo large. so i take the screws to the grinder,and take a little off the head,{funny} some flew across the shop,lost!!and i'm 20miles in the woods.
next be sure to lube with oil or wd40 so they screw in easyier. careful not to wring the screws off,or HELLO DOLLIE
such a little job can be a pain!!also on sho-bud have to grind keys on end,5 and6 to have room. i could go on,but be prepared
farris |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 27 August 2005 12:54 PM
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OK,job is almost done,BE sure to enlarge the holes in keys to 1/8 inch,makes life a lots more pleasureable!!!good luck guys.
farris |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 28 August 2005 07:52 PM
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Well,worked on professional a lots thru the wk end.now i got several questions in my mind wondering why certain things were done!!My pedal rods where they conect on the guitar have been ground about 1/2 the way thru on the bend.I can understand the rod plugs in a oversize 3/16 hole,but man,
this has sure made the rods much weaker. seems better to enlarge the attachment hole?
also the rods have been sawed with notches to number the pedal rods with a hacksaw.The pickups are GREAT,but never seen none like them,one screw in each end,and wound all the way to each end.all sho-buds i ever seen, had 2 screws one and one in the other. I been trying to talk to Jerry Wallace,but he has been in major heart surgery toooo.
I want some of these pickups for my other sho-bud. they are dual coils but wow what a sound.
I did as Ricky says,removed the extra baskets,gets the rattles out.
Polished the real alum pullers,cked.gaged rollers,and getting ready to install new strings tomorrow. I am learning to love the old Basket professional sho-buds.
farris |
joe wright
Member From: Joelton, TN
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posted 29 August 2005 11:19 AM
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The most important part of the steel is the human being that plays it.With a couple wrenches and 5 minutes I can turn my Sierra U-12 into a Maverick. I can work on one but rather not. Not a mechanic, hate it. Don't get my hands dirty because I've put too much time into them. I often wonder how many play pedal steel because its the ultimate tinker toy....joe |
Drew Howard
Member From: Mason, MI, U.S.A.
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posted 29 August 2005 11:37 AM
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(Joe, WAZZUP?)I've had to tinker and adjust enough stuff on my guitar to know what I want/don't want next time I buy one. Drew ------------------
Drew Howard - website - Fessenden D-10 8/8, Fessenden SD-12 5/5 (Ext E9), Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3 |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 29 August 2005 11:41 AM
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JOE,you are so right,i hate mechanicing to,guess thats what makes the steel so good,its not so dirty!!Wondering how many have played and put up with something for weeks,knowing how to fix it but just keep putting it off. I sure have and confess,LAZY i guess!!! come to think of it,the steel is a good puzzle to play with huh!!!hahahaha Yep,there is extremes both ways!!like to play em,and also enjoy tinkering some tooo.
farris |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
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posted 29 August 2005 12:07 PM
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Well, I just spent the morning doing things to a Carter Starter that they say you can't.
I enjoy tinkering with guitars as much as I do playing, and I think it's fun and important to know what's going on beneath the steel.
Beneath the Steel
Charlie the Moth
Carter Self Starter
Six months ago I couldn't spell copedant, and now I can spell it.
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Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 02 September 2005 08:11 AM
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Well,i'm slow,and lots going on!!just now getting to finish my up dates!!Number one if you haven't tryed the grover 18:1 keys you don't know what your missing!!the smoothest keys i've ever used.
Number 2,for sho-bud professionals,i couldn't afford to buy new rods for my double steel,so i silver soldered the ends to make them permanant,could also use some sort of locktight on them.Yep they still stick out about 3/16of a inch,but also have the dual coil switches and selecter switchs that sticks out to, so doesn't really bother me.
Number 3, i machined a pc of alum stock,and made a adjuster like the others,knurled it tooooo. drilled a hole in the end and pressed a pc.of allen wrench in it.WOW what a tuning wrench,and don't matter to me if it goes over or in the tuners.
Did as Ricky says,removed the extra baskets that are not used.no need to tear up anything,just take a screw driver and spread open enough to get the baskets out.save them in case u ever need them in future!!!
I could go on and on, but i use Jagwire Tommy White strings ordered for forum, and i'm almost afraid to play that black sho-bud.
Last but certainly not least,i talked to BOBBY BOWMAN,and he gave me some great ideas on how to set up.
Moral of the story.I have a steel that scares me to play it.such a sound i've searched for for years. farris |
Jon Zimmerman
Member From: California, USA
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posted 03 September 2005 11:29 AM
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Farris, so patient and full of enthusiasm--encouraging words too, all about what is so valuable in the Forum--getting to, and solving problems for everyone to examine. Gods speed, Farris. Good stuff.
Mark Van A.--everytime I "take a step back and think"-about what a weird instrument it is, I FALL OVER the case or an amp with a THUMP! JZ |
Steve Hackney
Member From: Stilesville, Indiana, USA
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posted 03 September 2005 08:00 PM
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Farris, I'm in the process of a complete tear down on my old LDG. I've had it apart a few times before, but never this far. I've disassembled every part that could be taken apart for cleaning and inspection. The amazing thing is the lack of wear on most of the parts. It's in really good shape for a 30 year old steel. But I've always kept everything well oiled. The major thing I found was lots of crud. Oil and dirt build up. I'm excited about getting it put back together and seeing how much better it plays. I'm sure there will be some minor headaches with the fine tuning and adjustments, but to me, getting it just right is the fun part.
I'm gonna email ya couple pics just for the fun of it, to let you see my nightmare in progress. |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 04 September 2005 07:36 AM
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Thank you Jon,yes it is enjoyable to learn and to try to help others!!!Now STEVE!!i looked at those pictures,and said!!POOR FELLOW!!hahahahaha No i wish those pictures could be posted on here!!there ain't even a screw left in that guitar!!!now when steve gets it back together,he will know that guitar and every pc of it.take your time STEVE and clean,polish and do it right my friend. GOD BLESS YOU farris |
Charles Turpin
Member From: Mexico, Missouri, USA
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posted 08 September 2005 01:40 PM
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Farris i think eveyr steel player ought to know how everything works underneath them and be able to put it back together. I only had trouble one time. I got to a job and with all the bouncing around on the bus, My change to the sixth string had fallen off the changer end. I put it back on before the show and detuned all the changes to the string. Hooked the change back up then tuned the changes and everything worked fine. but Zum guitars the old and the new ones are easy to work on. But i am like Joe Wright i would rather be playing than working on them. When i buy a guitar i want the set up on it to be right like i play it or i want the person to set it up the way i want it. I didn't buy my guitar to work on it i buy it to play it. That is just like going out buying a new car then taking it to a mechanic. But if i want a new change put on it or it set up different i have friends that can do it for me. My tinkering i want to tinker with what notes are on the neck not whats under the neck. but everything wears out specialy on steel. But i won't do it myself. |
Theresa Galbraith
Member From: Goodlettsville,Tn. USA
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posted 08 September 2005 03:29 PM
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Bob, I thought my dad told you that? 
Good one Joe! |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 09 September 2005 06:59 AM
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Hello everyone!!
i've been off a few days,lots going on!!
I am so fortunate to have old country machine shop.even tho mach.s are old, and i am tooooo.
Took some time to move machs. around Monday which was Labor Day.and we Labored toooooo.
now trying to rewire and get set up to go again. I went back reading some of your responses,and apprec. each one. True,each of us have completely different ideas. thats what make the word go round.huh. we each have different goals. some wants to be a professional player,and some like me wants to tinker!!!and some both!!Well,i like to know what makes something work. I now have 3 double 10s and 2 single10s so got plenty of tinkering to do. step one for me,i have a pro1 scattered all over the table. only had one knee pedal on it. also the pot metal pullers,so where to start??John Coop makes the Pullers with the bearings for the sho-buds.but i am like many of you i'm sure,i'm Broke!! Yes,i would like to buy everything,but budget doesn't allow it.so where do we guys go??we still have desires tooooo. huh. mabe we can pick up a few parts at the time,and figure how to add stuff our self??
If i could replace the pot metal,my steel would be fine!!well, i'm gonna call John Coop and see if i can buy the tops of the pullers only.then rivit them to the old sho-bud pullers.If not then,i'll get some good alum.and go to work!!I have learned to buy a good set of small drills,number sets prefered,drill press is real good,and most have some kindda drill press.
Well, i'll stop for now,gotta work some.
tell us what you have going on.Love to hear about it. farris |
Clyde Lane
Member From: Glasgow, Kentucky, USA
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posted 09 September 2005 09:27 AM
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Hey Farris, for me working on the bottom side is no problem. Its the top side that drives me nuts!!!!Clyde Lane |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 09 September 2005 09:54 AM
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NO WHAT YOU MEAN CLYDE!!!i not good at all on the top side for sure!!!i try, but that leads me to the bottom side!!!!its always the guitars fault!!ha ha, just kidding my friend. I'm just so interested,what if i could make steel pull this string,or lower that string,seems like it would help!!then the next song,it don;t fit, but on and on huh. farris |
Steve Hackney
Member From: Stilesville, Indiana, USA
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posted 09 September 2005 06:13 PM
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I'm like you Farris. Basically broke. As far as money to spend on my steel anyway. So I had to decide what the old Bud needed most. Got some parts from Duane Marrs and some on the way from John Coop. I'm pretty well satisfied with the results so far. When I get er done, I'll send ya another pic.
By the way, Duane and John are both A-1 guys to deal with. |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 11 September 2005 03:21 PM
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Hello my friends,STEVE,wondering how things are going for you??I lost last wk.on steels,moving machines,and trying to rewire the shop!!! I did order little taps and dies,hopeing they come in this wk.I'm beginning to get the itch to make some little parts!! Got to get set up again first. You bet,John Coop, Duane Marrs,And JEFF,are the greatest guys!!they have helped me and many more so much!!! |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 16 September 2005 05:24 AM
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This is Friday,and another wk,about gone.
I have worked pretty hard for this old man this wk. {BUT}I did find time to work on my sho-bud parts one day!!!There is nothing like standing or sitting there,holding those in your hands,studying them,each part one at a time.
I'm reminded of a Fisherman,or Hunter,that knows their equipment.Most sports i know,you need to be able to fix if it Jams or Hangs on you!!!
I can't imagine fishing,and the reel messes up,loading the boat and comming home.Or hunting and the gun Jams,and walking out and coming home.NOPE, FIX IT.
Why is steel any different?????? I am so close to this little sho-bud since holding the pcs.and buffing and machining each pc.
since i started,on the pullers,i grind the rivits out,being ever so careful not to destroy anything.then i made new tops out of real alum. just like the old ones and got rid of the Pewter CAP PISTOL material.
I bought stainless steel rivits from ace hardware,3/16 just like the origionals.get the correct length you need,and it is surprizing how ezy it is. Something about knowing you fit it, make it just right feel so smooth,
being sure to debur each pc.buff slick and smooth.Well 10 pullers are ready to go back in!!!!! Now i'm gonna make a new axle out of stainless,buff it good and back together they go. Another thing i am doing is,Mark each pc on the guitar,so as to be able to identify it if ever it is stolen. I can tell you by each pc. also have your name and numbers all over it to where they don't show.
I have chose to stamp the endplates while they are off. then when assembled they wont even show. Might never find it anyway, but some day someone might just tear it down,and hum!!!!!!
I've know of more than one gun to be found,even tho you know its yours,pull the stock off,say look right there,if you have marked it GOT YA.
We have id numbers asigned to us by the shierffs office. can be tracked anywhere they say.
Well time to get to work. Later guys.
farris |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 17 September 2005 04:11 AM
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Good Morning!!its 7am Sat. I had a wonderful time on the Steel Guitar Room this morning. woke up at Midnite,house was full,and Southern Gospel Music provide by Rodney Leach. Stayed up till 3am. now i'm wound tight.Dreamed rest of morning,such pretty music,and crying steel guitars toooo.I've been ask by several to explain more on what i was talking about on the changer exchange.and building the new parts. First of all i guess i just take it for granite that everone can do this stuff!!!
Just seem natural to me,because this has been my life for almost 50yrs.
Each person has there trades,and i get to thinking!!!!If a barber hands me the clippers and sissors and says go ahead and cut their hair!!!!WOW,someones gonna get ruined hahhahhaha OK enough of my foolishness. Begin,some say they like the pewter chromed pullers!![FINE] Others like me hate them,the chrome peals and ruins later.and i don't like the slots,and the sound of them.
but what do i know,i'm not a pro!!!!! I could never figure why we put Chevy Motors in a Ford roadster hahahahha!!!!! Ok first i'm gonna measure today each step i took,and will have it on paper before i start explaining. If anymore wants to know email me. due to the length of it, i need to know exact sizes ect. now its coffee time farris |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
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posted 17 September 2005 05:05 AM
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Farris; piano tuners use the same kind of action cradle you describe. Good idea. How aboutsomething like:
Just a thought.
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Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 17 September 2005 05:53 AM
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Great Possibilitys Charlie!!!my spelling is rough!!! I want to be able to sit the guitar set up in a frame,then be able to roll it to where ever!!!also must be no marring. protect the endplates ect.
Thanks Charlie!!!! farris |
Steve Hackney
Member From: Stilesville, Indiana, USA
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posted 17 September 2005 08:53 PM
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Farris
Well, I finally Got-Er-done. It's amazing what a lot of cleaning and a few new parts can do to improve the playability of an old steel. All the slop is gone out of the pedals and levers. The strings return to pitch like there suppose to and it just feels better. I didn't do much to the cosmetics except for a little polishing and buffing. But I did refinish the undercarriage and that looks 100% better even though I'm the only one that will usually see that part of it. It just makes me feel better about the old Bud.
Pics are on the way in your email. |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 18 September 2005 10:37 AM
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STEVE AND CHARLIE,hope i don't get mixed up,but if i do please forgive me!!!Steve that guitar is very nice my friend!!!
now you know that sho-bud like the back of your hand!!something goes wrong you know exactly what to do!!! Charlie,i dreamed about your project last night in my sleep!! I walked forward picked up my steel and set it right in a holder.
endplates sit firmly in nylon padded holders completely adjustable,locked them down and turned the steel over! man i got mad, legs hung on something, i said oh crap got to redesign that. boys i see such a monster holder comming soon. Mount steel in, flip it and work any way want to. turn it back over try it.gotta have lock to lock in any postion. COMMING SOON GUYS. farris |
Jay Dee Maness
Member From: North Hills, CA
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posted 18 September 2005 08:20 PM
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I am a firm believer that a big part of playing the steel guitar, is knowing how it works and, how to work on it. |
Farris Currie
Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 22 September 2005 02:50 PM
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Thank you Jay Dee,yes very important,if we can't fix the little problems,good chance not gonna get the good sound.
i have a friend plays a Gibson lead,and we have to set the action on that guitar reg.to make it sound great. Can't depend on someone else to set it for us.
Well been off for a few,watching the storms. Lots of Friends in Texas area,and very worried about each of them.
back soon with more discussion!!! farris | |
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