|
Author
|
Topic: PSG (vs non-pedal) tone
|
Paul Brainard
Member From: Portland OR & Austin TX
|
posted 25 September 2005 11:36 PM
profile
There was a thread here recently (probably perennially) discussing why pedal steel guitars don't sound like non-pedals, and there seems to be some consensus that maybe the biggest single reason is the changer - a lot of tone is lost there. But it just occurred to me that you could use a second roller nut at the bridge with the changer just a little bit behind it, instead of having the changer function as the bridge. Seems like that would transfer more tone, maybe. And with all existing parts, just a slightly longer body would be required (or go keyless. . .) Someone must have tried this, right? |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
|
posted 26 September 2005 04:10 AM
profile
Interestingly, I just got an old Multi-Kord that I cleaned up the changer and re-strung.
It's a three-ply slab of wood, and has a great sound, possibly more like a lap steel than a modern psg.
It has a roller bridge and a roller nut.
Really great sounding little guitar. |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
|
posted 26 September 2005 04:14 AM
profile
quote:
a lot of tone is lost there
"Lost"? Hmmm... to my ears pedal steels sound much fuller and richer in tone than nonpedals, which traditionally sound thinner and "zingier". (Of course, when Reece plays non-pedals it sounds as full as anything, and I'm sure some others do too.) I could perhaps agree that tone may be "modified" by the changer but I wouldn't call it "lost". I've always thought the difference probably resided more in the winding of the pickups, but I'll leave that to more experienced commentators. |
Dave Ristrim
Member From: Whites Creek, TN
|
posted 26 September 2005 04:48 AM
profile
How about string tension and scale length. I believe that would be a major reason why. Then of course body mass. Viva La Differance! (sp)Dave |
Ray Montee
Member From: Portland, OR, USA
|
posted 26 September 2005 05:12 AM
profile
I've provided some great examples during recent months of how great an olde 1970-ish Emmons P/Pull sounds........with or without pedals being used. It's got fat, rich TONE, from bass to treble notes. The current tune has tone EQUAL to anyone of my several Ric Bakelites or Bigsby.
I think TONE rests with the manner in which the amp is set-up; the type of amp used with which kind of pickup; the manner in which the guitar itself is "plucked" and the types of strings you elect to use.
Of course, the Black and Red ones are said to have better tone but my olde guitar is a greenish/black. I don't know how Emmons did that color blending as it was supposed to be a rich GREEN like what I've seen on several MSA's. |
Paul Brainard
Member From: Portland OR & Austin TX
|
posted 26 September 2005 08:36 AM
profile
Clearly any discussion of tone is going to be highly subjective, and of course there are a huge number of factors that determine how a steel sounds and that contribute to the differences between any two steels. But IF you agree that generally pedal steels tend to sound thin compared to many lap/console steels (which I do), and especially if you're thinking of how to make a pedal steel sound tonally more like a non-pedal (which I am), then eliminating the changer as one of the two main pieces responsible for transmitting the vibration of the strings to the body might be worth looking into. I guess the theory is that the changer really only connects the strings to the body through the braces that support the axle, and it has a lot of extra mass that dampens or absorbs their vibrations. That's supposedly why guitars with designs where the fingers come to rest in contact with the body seem to have a bigger sound, because there's more of the changer transmitting those vibrations. Maybe it would be a good experiment to take two identical guitars and replace the changer on one with a roller nut & see what the difference is. Or if you have a multi-neck guitar with pedals & non-pedal, is there a difference between them? Ray, isn't your Bigsby like that?[This message was edited by Paul Brainard on 26 September 2005 at 08:42 AM.] |
Jeff Hyman
Member From: Mt. Airy, MD
|
posted 26 September 2005 09:34 AM
profile
Changing pickups is a big piece IMHO. I wish
there was a Charlie Christian pickup for a
10 string PSG. I've never heard anything as sweet and fat as a 1930's Gibson EH-150 with
the Charlie Christian pickup.------------------
Jeff Hyman
jeffshobud@yahoo.com
Sho~Bud LDG
WEBB and Fender Deluxe
www.HatCreekCountry.com
www.cactus.com
[This message was edited by Jeff Hyman on 26 September 2005 at 09:44 AM.]
|
Paul Brainard
Member From: Portland OR & Austin TX
|
posted 26 September 2005 09:57 AM
profile
Check out Jason Lollar's site, www.lollarguitars.com, I know he makes some pickups based on that design, and also makes custom pickups. . .yes, probably winding the pickups a lot lighter would take the tone in that direction (seems like most older laps are down around 10K?) |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
|
posted 26 September 2005 12:21 PM
profile
Strum a lap steel unplugged.
Do the same with a pedal steel unplugged.
The lap has a much richer tone.
The pedal steel changer mechanism is absorbing a lot of vibrating energy, thus the thin tone.
All-Pull changers (with the exception of ZB, because of the unique design) suck a lot more life out of the steel than alternative changers, ie, Pull-Release and Push-Pull, in my opinion. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
|
posted 27 September 2005 08:42 AM
profile
What's unique about the ZB all-pull changer that makes it not suck tone (in your opinion), Richard?------------------
 Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
|
posted 27 September 2005 11:28 AM
profile
B0b,
The ZB fingers have a small threaded rod which extends through holes in the endplate.
The tuners screw onto these rods, and when the finger is raised or lowered, the tuners come into hard contact with the endplate, unlike normal All-Pulls, where the finger is always floating.
R B |
Dean Parks
Member From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA
|
posted 27 September 2005 11:37 AM
profile
Richard-If that theory were true, wouldn't every steel with a "final lower" split-tuner screw in the endplate sound better when that note is played? -Dean- |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
|
posted 27 September 2005 12:55 PM
profile
Dean,
Yes.Or maybe No. It's just an excuse to show a photo of my ZB.  
 [This message was edited by richard burton on 29 October 2005 at 03:52 AM.] |
CHIP FOSSA
Member From: Monson, MA 01057 U.S.A.
|
posted 27 September 2005 02:38 PM
profile
Gheez,You guys sure know how to zap the FUN out of playing a pedal steel. My keyless, all-pull Williams U-12 sounds pretty loud, sustaining, and with great tone. I can make it as thin a sound, or as full a sound as you may. The amp, 31 band EQ, and Holy Grail Reverb, and oh yeah, Brad's Black Box sure can compensate for any, uh, tone loss, due to some percieved non-contacting mechanical situation. I just don't see what all the fuss is about. |
Paul Brainard
Member From: Portland OR & Austin TX
|
posted 27 September 2005 02:53 PM
profile
It' just an excuse to keep from practising. . . |
b0b
Sysop From: Cloverdale, California, USA
|
posted 27 September 2005 03:02 PM
profile
I tend to agree, Chip. I challenge anyone to spot the lap steel solo on the new Open Hearts CD. I usually play the part on pedal steel, but I chose lap in the studio because it's more fun to play. I can duplicate the sound on my Williams, no problem.
I'm not saying there's no difference in tone between different instruments. What Chip and I are saying is that you can get the sound you want out of the electronics regardless of how the guitar resonates acoustically. The pickup catches the string vibrations, not the vibrations of the body or the bridge or the changer.
The minor differences in tone created by differing construction techniques can be easily modifies at the control panel to suit any taste. The larger tone difference, the one that you can't change by turning a knob, is in the hands of the player.------------------
 Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator
My Blog |
Paul Brainard
Member From: Portland OR & Austin TX
|
posted 27 September 2005 03:59 PM
profile
Of course we've all seen this topic go round and round lots of times. . I agree that much of one's tone is (or can be) in the hands & technique & settings. But at the same time each instrument/pickup/etc does lend its particular character to the sound and you have to work within its parameters. And while you can probably get to the tone you want (if you know what it is!) on most any axe, it does seem like sometimes you have to work harder at it and sometimes it just springs out by default. Though we should all probably be spending this time learning how to play the damn things, it's not totally misplaced to put some effort into the tone question because it certainly is a big part of what we do & what drew us to this instrument in the first place. Singers and players of "natural" instruments (horns etc.) spend lots of time working on their tone. I play trumpet too. Tone & technique are closely related. But on our instrument there's also a large mechanical & electrical component to that. And the instrument itself is still evolving, so I think it is a wothwhile topic - kept in perspective.But to my original question, does anyone think it would make a positive difference to have a second nut at the right end of the steel, then the changer a little lower so the strings would cross at an angle like at the keyhead? Has anyone ever seen this done? The ZB looks close & the Multikord sounds similar. It would be analagous to a guitar with a bigsby attachment vs. a strat or Floyd Rose tremolo. I could picture a Williams, which uses a free-standing nut already, maybe a keyless on a regular body so you'd have some extra length to use. In fact I was going to ask Bill what he though of the idea but I thought I'd throw it up here first. |
CHIP FOSSA
Member From: Monson, MA 01057 U.S.A.
|
posted 27 September 2005 04:57 PM
profile
NO. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
|
posted 27 September 2005 05:00 PM
profile
Ed Packard's Sierra 'beast' comes to mind. |
CHIP FOSSA
Member From: Monson, MA 01057 U.S.A.
|
posted 27 September 2005 05:25 PM
profile
WOW, b0b!Thanks, sort of, for that reminder. |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
|
posted 28 September 2005 02:50 AM
profile
Electric Concert Harp! I love it.The Multi-Kord changer is in a box of 3/8" steel which fits tightly in the body. Thus finger contact is always made with the (in this case) solid wood through pounds of steel.
But this may be moot, given the equalization parameters; I personally like the sound of the steel itself, unaltered. |
The Steel Guitar Forum
