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Author
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Topic: ATA will bust open your locked instruments?
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Colm Chomicky
Member From: Prairie Village, Kansas, USA
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posted 17 October 2005 06:48 PM
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Just got back from the Airport only to find a government printed notice inside my suitcase saying my bag had been opened and searched. It also said that the government is not responsible for repair of locks or other damage in the course of opening. I was wondering about instrument cases, I can imagine checking a steel to find out your locked flight case has been pryied open. PS Probably best to strap shut somehow some damage to case won't result.[This message was edited by Colm Chomicky on 17 October 2005 at 06:51 PM.] |
Dave Van Allen
Member From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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posted 17 October 2005 06:59 PM
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Yes they will. |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 17 October 2005 07:24 PM
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Yeah, you're not allowed to lock any luggage anymore. Understandable... I don't want any locked luggage below me that hasn't been searched when I'M on that plane!  |
Stu Schulman
Member From: anchorage,alaska
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posted 17 October 2005 08:32 PM
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My neighbor has a lock for her luggage that is ATA approved,I'm not sure if it's got a magnetic device or a pass key that they use to open it and then lock it again after the search.I'll find out who makes it. |
Duane Reese
Member From: Salt Lake County, Utah
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posted 18 October 2005 01:48 PM
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It is true that you can't put a lock on your luggage, unless you want it to be busted.Here is what I'm worried about: imagine you put your pedal steel in checked baggage, unlocked, and it goes through as expected... Then the Homeland Security guy opens up your case, and decides to look under the upside-down guitar sitting there, and instead of picking it up by the edges he just grabs a handfull of rods and tries to pick it up like a bail of hay... I'm not saying they're stupid or anything, but that's a worry I have about taking a steel on a plane. If you left a note saying <- pick up by edges please -> would it anger them? |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 18 October 2005 02:26 PM
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No, I don't think it would anger them. They're probably wondering what the heck they're looking at. I put a typed sign inside my case for them that says: "This is a steel guitar (upside down). The other side has 20 strings. Please handle with care." |
Colm Chomicky
Member From: Prairie Village, Kansas, USA
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posted 18 October 2005 04:34 PM
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Thanks, these are good tips, and I did not know there was a thing as an ATA approved lock. And yes, I can see a concern with how a steel is lifted out of the case by the inspector, not easy given the weight and lack of visible hand holds.The reason I have locked bags in the past is to keep latches from accidently springing open during handling and having my multi-color boxer shorts all over the tarmac. (but, I do get compliments on my 60-year old suitcases though).[This message was edited by Colm Chomicky on 18 October 2005 at 04:34 PM.] |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 18 October 2005 04:50 PM
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quote:
to keep latches from accidently springing open during handling and having my multi-color boxer shorts all over the tarmac.
Oh, well in that case, Colm, I have two suggestions for you:1. Wrap duct tape around your case a few times, covering the latches over. Sure, ATA will open it, but they'll also retape them up like they found them. They'll use their own "ATA approved" tape but it's good stuff and should do the job fine. 2. Avoid multi-color boxer shorts.  |
Don E. Curtis
Moderator From: St Louis, Missouri, USA
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posted 18 October 2005 04:50 PM
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Recently and even before 9/11 they always make me take it out and hold it up and even Scotty too with the Frypan...then I'm allowed to put tie wraps on the road clasps to help keep them secure. Then they charge me $20 extra! |
Gaylon Mathews
Member From: Jasper, Georgia
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posted 18 October 2005 05:42 PM
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I have been asked before by the TSA if I wanted to wait until they are done searching my road case and lock it afterwards. I never do because as soon as I say yes, I can see someone later noticing that the case is locked and bust it open to check it again. And yes, they will pick up your guitar and look under it. They put my Emmons back in the case backwards and put a small ding in the laminant finish. The airlines have also knocked a hole in the top of my $550.00 road case not once...but twice! ------------------
Gaylon's Homepage
www.gaylonmathews.com Gretchen Wilson
www.gretchenwilson.com GFI Ultra D-10, Fender Steel King, GHS Strings, SteelSeat.com
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Dyke Corson
Member From: Urbana, IL USA
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posted 18 October 2005 05:59 PM
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Leaving the Dallas show last March I had two ProfexIIs in a suitcase with t-shirts packed around and between them to protect them. When I got home there was the goverment note inside, ProfexIIs on top of the t-shirts with knobs broken on each one. They did not re-pack this one like they found it!  |
Stu Schulman
Member From: anchorage,alaska
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posted 19 October 2005 06:18 AM
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Here's the deal on the ATA approved lock according to my friend.It's a seatbelt type device that goes around the luggage,it has a three digit combination lock on it that only you can open,The ATA has a master key that will open it.I will get a brand name and price sometime today. |
Danny Naccarato
Member From: Ft. Worth, Texas US
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posted 19 October 2005 07:32 AM
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Great idea about the sign Jimbo. I usually ask to stand with them explaining what it is and offer to lift it for them. Danny ------------------
Janie Fricke
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Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 19 October 2005 07:55 AM
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By the way, they sell those ATA-approved combination locks in all the airport stores. |
Dick Wood
Member From: Springtown Texas, USA
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posted 19 October 2005 08:10 AM
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I went to Alaska with my band about a month ago. I got one of those notices telling how they had inspected my guitar case.When I got to the gig on Kodiak Island I got the steel out at the club and found my bar and picks rolling around in the undercarriage. I tried to tune it up and found the pedals and levers couldn't be tuned to pitch or return true. I turned it over to see what was wrong and I'm about 100% sure they pulled the guitar out of the case by the pull rods because there were many that were bent badly. I think I had to remove seven rods and straighten them out with a hammer before I could tune or play it. That will be my first and last time I ever get on another flight with my steel. ------------------
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
Duane Reese
Member From: Salt Lake County, Utah
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posted 19 October 2005 09:00 AM
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My fears CONFIRMED! AAAHHHH!!!
:O |
Chris Lucker
Member From: Los Angeles, California USA
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posted 19 October 2005 09:48 AM
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On my last two trips over seas with golf clubs in my hard case "club coffin" I have had my case locked. However, when at LAX at departure, I waited with my keys for the club case to be inspected. He unlocked the case, did his search, relocked the case, suggested that he further secure the case with a couple surrounds of tape, and I thanked him. On the return from Barbados, both times, same procedure. In Miami, customs check, I was there to provide the key. Same good service.
Just ask to help with the key. Let them know you are there to assist with unlocking. But, don't expect to be able to do the actual handling of your luggage contents.
Aren't shotguns still required to travel in locked cases? |
Colm Chomicky
Member From: Prairie Village, Kansas, USA
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posted 19 October 2005 11:50 AM
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Be aware that you might not always be present during these openings to help the inspector. I am talking about later inspections, somewhere down in the bowels of the airport, that occur after initial screening. |
Chris Lucker
Member From: Los Angeles, California USA
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posted 19 October 2005 12:16 PM
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I don't really know what you are referring to as additional checks in the bowells of the airport. That's not how an airport works. The Transportation Security Admin checks after you check in, and you may provide a key to your locked case. After TSA checks, the bag will not get opened again until Customs, and again, you can be there.
Perhaps if there is a threat and they want to recheck every bag, you may have an issue, but there are no "bowels" in an airport where TSA does secondary checks.
I suggest that you call your local TSA office. Or, the easiest one I have found to get through to is in Palm Springs: 760 416-7833. Thomas Anthony s the Director, but you can speak to anyone there. They can tell your the Federal Regulations and procedures for all US airports.
Chris Lucker |
Stu Schulman
Member From: anchorage,alaska
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posted 19 October 2005 12:57 PM
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Here is the link for those ATA locks,My friend just took a flight from Kodiak to Anchorage and said sure enough that the agent had the pass key. http://www.magellans.com/store/Safety___Security___Locks___Straps [This message was edited by b0b on 20 October 2005 at 10:09 AM.] |
Dick Wood
Member From: Springtown Texas, USA
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posted 19 October 2005 01:08 PM
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Chris, I respectfully disagree. I checked my guitar at the counter and never saw it again from Dallas to Kodiak Island. As a matter of fact,the girl at the ticket counter simply asked what was in the box.I told her a steel guitar and after a look you'd see on a deers face in the headlights, she put the tags on it and they took it to the bowls of the airport to have their way with it. ------------------
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night.[This message was edited by Dick Wood on 19 October 2005 at 01:56 PM.] |
Fred Plant
Member From: Winter Haven, Florida, USA
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posted 19 October 2005 02:01 PM
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Brinks makes the combination locks you want. That is: Hampton Products in Foothill Ranch, CA.
They're called Travel Aware luggage locks. They have a red indicator that shows if they opened it.
Somebody from out there in CA must have the phone #Fuzzy |
Chris Lucker
Member From: Los Angeles, California USA
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posted 19 October 2005 02:37 PM
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Dick, reread my post. In both cases I tell them at the counter that my SKB case is locked and that I have a key. I ask to be present when they inspect my SKB case so I may give the inspector the key, and make sure the case is locked again.
Reading your post you don't mention asking to help the inspector with the key. The girl at the ticket counter IS NOT the TSA inspector.
If you did, perhaps you are travelling in an airport that does not follow TSA regulations? Or, someone who is not with the TSA is openning your case. Which is the reason why i always lock my golf case, or all the golf balls will be missing when I get the luggage at the other end. The TSA ain't the ones taking golf balls.
Chris[This message was edited by Chris Lucker on 19 October 2005 at 02:38 PM.]
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Colm Chomicky
Member From: Prairie Village, Kansas, USA
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posted 19 October 2005 03:17 PM
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All I know is I checked my bags at the ticket counter (Kansas City - MCI)and there was no TSA agent present. (They used to inspec right out front in the past at this airport). When unpacking at my destination I found the TSA inspection note inside the baggage. It is my understanding some of the Airports (generally major) have checked baggage x-ray and other detectors and these are not in public access areas. So the tips on at least having a note inside with the steel guitar to aid the inspector and having ATA approved locks appear very helpful.PS the tip on asking to be present during inspection is also helpful and never hurts to ask but perhaps at some Airports it may not be permitted.[This message was edited by Colm Chomicky on 19 October 2005 at 03:22 PM.] |
Stu Schulman
Member From: anchorage,alaska
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posted 19 October 2005 03:45 PM
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Dick:Where did you play in Kodiak?Most of the time the baggage folks in Kodiak take good care of my stuff,I play there about 5 times a year,and it's a small airline...Although a couple of years ago we watched the handlers while we were on the plane throw our keyboard player's amp about 15 feet in the air,we reported him to the flight attendant before we even left the ground,and they had to pay,You never know. |
Joe Naylor
Member From: Avondale, Arizona, USA
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posted 19 October 2005 07:05 PM
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Our government employees only care when their next break is,they do not care one way or the other how things are packed back in a suit case. I took some bars to St. Louis and they were packed in cloth. Not only were they every where my all my clothes looked like they had been wore for at least a week a piece. This is not the only time our government employees have sturred the inside of my suit case. If you do not get that action from these zeros then you are just lucky. Keep travelin' and it WILL happen to you. They simply do not care.:0 :0 ------------------
Joe Naylor, Avondale, AZ (Phoenix)Desert Rose Guitar, Life Member of the Arizona Carport Pickers Association |
Dillon Jackson
Member From: Seattle, Washington, USA
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posted 19 October 2005 09:55 PM
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Good information. I was inspected to Las Vegas (in the back room) and nothing was hurt--though the foam was not packed in as tight as I had it. Now I am off to NYC next week. These folks aren't purposely distructive and I think that there is a 50/50 chance that they would rather not ruin a steel guitar--So Jim's Note idea is a great one which I will definately use. |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 20 October 2005 12:11 AM
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In addition to Jim Cohen's note I would add.While I fully supoport security checks, I must advise you : This is a precision, and very expensive, musical instrument. PLEASE... Do NOT ever;
Lift it for inspection using the internal rodding or ANY other internal parts.
Doing so can cause hundreds of dollars of damage in a few seconds... Do NOT grab by the strings on the other side either. Please lift from either end of the body,
and if neccesary,
place on a flat carpeted surface,
if you MUST look under the instrument. Also please remember that :
What's facing bottom in the case,
is NOT resting on the case bottom,
but on support struts. It is top side for performance, so is esthetically important. I am likely to be on stage with this instrument shortly after leaving the plane.
If it is broken or misaligned I am out of a job, after an expensive flight.
You can NOT find another to borrow easily, like a guitar... Thank you for your consideration. Print this out in HUGE letters and tape to the inside top if the case,
so there is NO DOUBT it is read. |
Darvin Willhoite
Member From: Leander, Tx. USA
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posted 20 October 2005 05:56 AM
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David, do you really think the inspectors would take the time to read all this, and if they did, would they comprehend it? I doubt both counts.------------------
Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording
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Colm Chomicky
Member From: Prairie Village, Kansas, USA
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posted 20 October 2005 06:14 AM
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I suppose if you were really serious about protecting the underside and pass through a lot of airports with your steel, maybe it might be possible to retrofit a travel shield of some sort on the underside including handles to lift, otherwise the steel will be at risk of being lifted out by the rods. Maybe figure out a way to mount a sheet of clear Lexan (polycarbonate) to shield the underside (perhaps the existing leg sockets could but used to mount the shield with a machined stubs that mates with the sockets). Some padding that stays on the changer if lifted out and flipped. Seems like a hassle though.[This message was edited by Colm Chomicky on 20 October 2005 at 06:20 AM.] |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 20 October 2005 07:57 AM
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The only thing to do is pack it as well as you can and hope for the best. If they are going to screw it up there is nothing you can do about it. Last flight I was on security yanked out the electronics to look at them on a Gibson jumbo.
The real problem is that there is no acountability. There is no way to find out who is "inspecting" or handling our possesions. They can do whatever they want with no problems ever. Its a real mess when you think that we have absolutely no recourse when the baggage guys destroy or steal our stuff.Most of the time there is no problems so I try not to worry about it. Bob |
Dick Wood
Member From: Springtown Texas, USA
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posted 20 October 2005 09:26 AM
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Stu, We were originally hired by the radio station to play a benefit fund raiser at the fairgrounds on Kodiak. They also set up a gig at the MECCA Club for Friday night which was a lot of fun.Chris, My experience was almost identical to Colm's. In our case, we departed D/FW to Houston then to Anchorage then short flight on ERA airlines to Kodiak. Our luggage was "Checked Through" so we never saw it again once we left D/FW. TSA only checked us and our carry on as we entered the secure terminal area. I found two notices that my case had been searched on the outbound as well as return flights. Whatever I had in my case was opened and just thrown back into the case to go where ever it happened to go. It appears they made no attempt to repack my picks,bar or cables as they were originally. There were no TSA Agents at the ticket counters and the ones at the terminal entrances only checked us and our carry on. I have flown many places in my life but this was my first flight where I took a steel guitar so I had no knowledge or understanding about being able to be with your equipment while it was being searched and as I said above, we never saw it again after the ticket agent threw it on a conveyor belt. ------------------
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
Chris Lucker
Member From: Los Angeles, California USA
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posted 20 October 2005 09:56 AM
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All I can say is I understand the concern all of you have for your belongings, but I do not understand why you don't take more active role in safety through the inspection process.
In my own poll of travellers in my office, and a few other flyfishing friends, no one had been denied the opportunity to provide a key and stand by to observe the inspection and approval had they asked. Six of the travellers flew to fishing lodges in Alaska. It's not like we are using political clout or anything like that.
Are you guys really asking to be there for the inspection and approval?
The process I am used to is much like travelling with a shotgun. You provide the key to the locked case, the case is opened, the gun and contents observed, and case locked again. Key returned. Chris[This message was edited by Chris Lucker on 20 October 2005 at 02:12 PM.] |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 20 October 2005 03:48 PM
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Chris,
Your friends have just been lucky so far. If you think you have any say at all about what the airlines do with or to your baggage you are living in dreamland. I have done exactly what you suggest for the last 20 flights I have been on. I even brought copies of the regulations printed out all nice. It meant absolutely nothing. Most of the time everything is cool but the underlying reality is "We don't care. We don't have to."
And yes, the real dirty work is done in restricted areas that customers have no access to. That is besides the normal dropping and throwing. Bob
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Chris Lucker
Member From: Los Angeles, California USA
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posted 20 October 2005 05:19 PM
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In a half hour or so, I'll see what George W. can do on this issue.
Maybe special steel sensors? |
Dillon Jackson
Member From: Seattle, Washington, USA
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posted 21 October 2005 08:33 AM
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I am thinking it might be wise to put two straps around the body running between the strings and the base on the downside so they can use the straps (not the rods and levers) to pull the unit up and look underneath. Its pretty clear that a little preventive thinking and a nice (short) handling note ending with a "Thank you for making flying safer" would reduce the risks. Ya its a suck up but, hey, these guys are holding your axe four feet above a concrete floor--you want them thinking nice thoughts.------------------
Dillon Jackson
abiband.com
ZUM U-12; NV-1000 |
Damir Besic
Member From: La Vergne,TN
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posted 22 October 2005 08:39 AM
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when I brought my guitar from Europe it was locked.It got to my house one day late.They said it was stuck at the customs.Case was locked and never opened thru the whole process so I believe they had used an x-ray machine.No damage to the instrument but some tore up tolex,It could have been worse I guess so I`m not complaining.Db ------------------
"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 22 October 2005 11:43 AM
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maybe the answer for those that travel regularly by AIR is to place two small handles underneath with short screws that do not go thru to the top side.Along with a note like Jim Cohens..which is a great idea... Maybe thinking in advance of the inspection process will help in stress relief... I do have a question for those in the know...what happens if one of the inspectors really causes major damage..can you file a claim ? and with who ? SOMEONE is responsible for damage..[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 October 2005 at 11:44 AM.] |
Colm Chomicky
Member From: Prairie Village, Kansas, USA
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posted 22 October 2005 01:43 PM
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Tony, I did some checking on the TSA website.Info to file a claim: http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?theme=183&content=090005198011b3f8 (good luck, maybe they try to get you to exhaust your patience by filing against any of your own insurance first such as homeowner's policy, file against the airline, etc. before they will consider. Also if the TSA inspection is performed by a private contractor, you have to deal with that private contractor. They must be hoping you'll die or give up jumping over each bureaucratic hurdle that is set out in the way) Info on transporting musical instruments - http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?content=0900051980069ab5&print=yes
Would not be bad to print this out as a basis for your apparent right to be present during the inspection of your instrument. |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 26 October 2005 10:23 PM
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Darvin, any chance they will read it partially
and act appropriately,
is better than no chance at all.Colm, plexiglass plate is a great idea. Better yet, add two metal or cloth handles that bolt onto the
leg sockets
that also holds the plexiglass in place.
THEN tape the sign on the plexiglass. They can't get at the undercarriage, but can see in,
and you have directed then to an easy way to lift the steel properly. AND If the sign says ;
"Please don't place the instruments top,
which is face down,
on a non-flat, non padded surface,
or it will cause damage." At least then you have a fighting chance, for relatively short bucks. |
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