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The "muddy bottom" syndrone can be solved easily in several ways; by pickup, and or by EQ.

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b0b, how did you fix the spacing in my chart? My original didn't cause horizontal scrolling on my screen, but your spacing looks better than the original.

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I still think that not having D and D# notes on the second string will push you into some wierd corners.

I love wierd corners. But it's an artifact from the Ed's PST I was playing with. Mike Perlowin uses it. I'll change it back.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

[This message was edited by b0b on 15 December 2005 at 10:48 AM.]

Many of us (me included) have wished upon Charlie our own prejudices. Most of us play E9 and/or C6 and are very interested in being able to play the traditional arrangements, licks and solos we hear played on those tunings.

Charlie may be new to pedal steel, but he is certainly NOT new to MUSIC. He knows what he wants to play and it ain't 'A Way to Survive' and it ain't western swing or hillbilly jazz. Those styles are just not what he's interested in. If you remove those styles from most Forum members' repertoires there would be little left. Maybe it's time for us to learn (from Charlie and others) that there is actually a wide world of music out there that the pedal steel, lap steel, reso, and Wiessenborn can contribute to.

If you listened to his recent posting of a tune he recorded, it's clear that his tastes run much more along the lines of music that Susan Alcorn or even Daniel Lanois have created. That represents a direction that very few of us have really investigated.

I believe that it is in everyone's best interest to bear this in mind and cut Charlie a little slack here. He is interested in our opinions -- but we must recognize they are OUR opinions and, as such, reflect our musical tastes and prejudices. He is NOT crazy just because the music he hears is less structured that the music most of us play.

I, for one, am very interested in seeing what Charlie comes up with. He is a very creative fellow and before too long may be able to teach us a thing or two.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

And Charlie, someone made the comment about not having or moving changes to distant pedals because you would have to look at the pedals to play them. That's nonsense. With practice, you can play a whole rack of pedals without ever having to look down at them. On my D10, I have 5 pedals that actuate my E9th neck, and 5 that actuate my C6th neck and I never have to look down at my pedals. Your eyes should only be focused on your bar hand. It just comes with practice. Again, good luck and keep us informed on your quest.

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Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic.

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I, for one, am very interested in seeing what Charlie comes up with.

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Sure you can add a lot of pedals to E9 and learn to use them. On the other hand, lots of people play steels with no pedals - imagine that. The classic E9 found a happy medium - two main pedals that you keep your foot on. That struck a chord, so to speak, and became enormously popular, almost to the excusion of anything else. Even the very top pros, who can dance across the pedals on C6, play that classic E9 style with their foot mashing and rocking the A and B pedals 99% of the time. It's a beautiful strategy that makes E9 what it is. Randomly rearranging core parts of it without a better strategy might be as likely to improve it as the proverbial roomful of monkeys with typewriters is likely to eventually write a Shapespeare play.

The PSG is designed to accommodate changes.
I'm not trying to change it for anyone else, nor do I advocate changing the core of E9. I am proposing something for my own experimentation on an MSA S12 7x4.

I'm not interested in C6 or B6. I don't use 6th chords intentionally--yes, yes, I know, the 6th is an important melody note, so let's don't get off on a tangent about leaving out the Bb's on a piano and stuff like that--and I don't particularly like dom. 7ths. I like an M7 with my 9ths, and love 11ths and 13ths. So I am atracted to PST13.
I envision it as a uni of sorts. Let's take a look at it. http://b0b.com/tunings/edpack.htm
Its major features are PX and PY; when used with a lever changing str. 2 & 8 to D, a broad range of 13ths is exposed. (Yes, I left it off my chart; like I say, I got lost in the conversation. Note: pedals X and Y on the chart do not reflect PST.) That is a simplistic summary.

In order to accommodate it on a 4x5, there is a compromise. To regain the E->F# change, I propose a lever (L>) to add it back in independent of the B->C# raise. At the moment it's just a concept .
[What to do for an F raise, Bobby's favorite lever? I don't know. The MSA seller says that's on RKR. IF so, I'll leave it there and see how I like it. I'm not very concerned at the moment. Bobby also doesn't like vocals with his music, so there ya go.]
I'd also like an independent pedal O to lower G# to F#, to suspend ii and resolve it. It also makes an easy V chord with L<. It's something I can hear. It's to be used in the pedals up position. Thus pedal B is only shifted one to the right, and that seems to work better for my short legs. Will it work with PX and still enable the F#? Will pedal 0 be useful? I don't know. There is no better way than to do it than on a real guitar. Doing so will answer a lot of questions I've asked, like whether 12 or 14 strings; what the most invaluable levers are; and whether I want to go with PST (given that I'll be lacking a lever to fully try it out).

What's the alternative? A standard setup?
It's been revealed that there isn't one. There are as many copeds as there are devil's advocates on this forum. Everyone finds his own by experimentation. That setup determines the kinds of chords you can get, the kinds of melodies you play.
Standardization leads to standardized music. I'm not interested in that. Did you listen to my sound file? What pedals and levers am I using? I can't even tell you that, but it's a Carter Starter stock setup.

I appreciate all the help. Bear in mind that mistakes aren't a bad thing. In music, they determine a different direction; and I would argue that they're not even mistakes, but are the interplay of the subconscious with the conscious.
On PSG, they can be corrected. It's all part of the fun that I envision with the coolest of all instruments.

As I said, maybe I'm out to put the fun back in dysfunctional. But please, don't confuse my curiosity with heresy. And if I ever end up with a 'standard' coped, please feel free to say 'I told you so.' But it'll make you--whoever you are--look silly, not me.

Now, where's David Donald to clarify that really interesting suggestion for an F# raise... might be the answer to my problems, both personal and scientific....

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 16 December 2005 at 05:30 AM.]

I’ve never really looked closely at Ed’s 13-series concept. What’s the brief explanation of the concept? Does PX have to be used with P2? Would it work if you kept the usual C pedal at P3, and put PX at P4? The BC pedal combination is very useful as ii, and gives the relative minor if you are at the AB pedal-down fret. I like the BC combination so much that have pedal C pull string 8 to F# to add to the moving harmony, and to eliminate having to block string 7 when moving to the next chord.

As for the low strings, my advice would be to keep the B on string 12, as a standard uni. Get the C# on that string on P1. I couldn’t live without that C# root for the minor chord with P1. That is THE minor key/chord home position for me, and I live there these days almost as much as I live at the I and V chord open and AB-pedal positions. Get the low A on string 12 by having P2 take it down from a B to an A. Don’t worry too much about things being too muddy down there. You don’t need to play adjacent strings down low, just use skip grips and power chords. With Bill Stafford’s 14-string jazz style, he is frequently just dropping his thumb down there and hitting a single low string, with something else going on up higher with his fingers. It’s a wonderful effect when playing solo like he does.

You may find that you don’t need the Gs on PY, unless that is an essential part of the 13-series. For simply changing the open E chord to a minor, you may not find that so useful. Most minor changes go to the relative minor or ii. The Im change is rare. And you can get that two other places. The F lever toggles the A-pedal/F-lever position between the major and minor; and the lever giving you a D on string 8 toggles the E-lower lever B6 chord to Bm6. And of course that E-lower lever B6 position is also G# minor. So there are lots of more useful ways to get minors than lowering the 3rd of the E chord. If you just want some way to get a G, then put a half-stop feel on LKV.

And be sure to have the F lever raise string 11 to F. That is useful for low diminished and augmenteds.

One of the main problems I have visualizing things on paper is that the paper chart only shows what is happening at the open pedal position. It is hard to visualize what is happening at the AB-pedal position, the AF position, the B6 position, or any of the minor positions. It can be helpful to draw a chart of each of those positions. It also helps me to transpose the open position and all those other positions into the C chord/key.

Well, that’s all my advice for now. Have fun.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 16 December 2005 at 07:13 AM.]

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I’ve never really looked closely at Ed’s 13-series concept.

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One of the main problems I have visualizing things on paper is that the paper chart only shows what is happening at the open pedal position.

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The AB pedals were added to get the IV chord at the I chord fret. By serendipity, those same changes give you the I chord up at the V chord fret. So if you are in the key of G, and you slide up to the V chord at the 10th fret and hit the AB pedals, you get a twangy I chord. Many country pickers spend more time on the I chord there than back down at the open pedal I chord position. It's a whole way of life. Your I chord home position becomes the 10th fret with the pedals down. And to get IV or V, you take your foot off the pedals, slide down to fret 3 or 5 and hit the AB pedals to twang it. Want the I chord again? Take your foot off the pedals, slide back up to the 10th fret, hit the AB pedals and twang it. Forget about playing the frets of an E neck with no pedals. You are now playing an A neck with your pedals down all the time. You just let up the pedals temporarily every time you move to a new chord, so you can slam them down and twang it. Many lap steelers were already familiar with an A6 or A13 neck (probably the most popular pre-pedals neck other than C6), and they really took to this A neck side of E9.

Sophisticates refer to this style derisively as "pedal mashing." Who cares, this is the core of twangy country E9 pedal steel, and is what drew gazillions of country pickers and listeners to pedal steel.

Now if you don't care for twangy country, don't throw out the pedals-down A-neck concept. You don't have to twang it. Working from the pedals-down position and tastefully rocking the pedals can also get you anything from blues licks, to jazz to classical phrasings. It's a whole world in itself - the A neck. The F# on string 7 makes it an A6 neck. But many of us pull that to G on a lever to make it an A7 neck.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but just wanted to complete the E9 concept picture.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 16 December 2005 at 08:24 AM.]

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But it's stuff that is so basic to old-timers that we forget that newbies might not know it.

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The F# on string 7 makes it an A6 neck. But many of us pull that to G on a lever to make it an A7 neck.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 16 December 2005 at 09:29 AM.]

At the time of my comments, I had no idea that Charlie was a beginner. My advise to any beginner would be to start with a standard (yes Charlie, there is pretty much a standard - see below) setup and not try to come up with my own setup until I was comfortable with what was going on.

Charlie, if you check with all the PSG manufacturers, you will find they pretty much all have the following as their standard E9th setup, with maybe the knee lever changes in different places. But that makes no difference. The actual pitch changes are all there. Some may have an additional lever, or add a C# lower to string 9 on the lever that lowers the 2nd string, but you will find these changes on every stock tuning from every manufacturer.

   LKL    LKR    1     2    3    RKL     RKR
F#
D#                               D/C#
G#                     A
E   F      D#               F#
B                C#         C#            Bb
G#                     A
F#
E   F      D#
D
B                C#                       Bb

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Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic.

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 16 December 2005 at 12:24 PM.]

He is in search of something where the logic is drivin from purer theory,
more than theory overlaid on older entrenched habits..
This is why he gravitated to Ed's PST logic.

I have myself been looking VERY closely at it.

It is also not a indictment of Nash E9 either.
There are ways and there are ways... N'est pas?
(Again no brick bats in defence of Nash 9... it is what it is.)

So to say
he should start with vanila E9 is illogical.
he plans on creating his own path; period.

If he loses some TAB time,
so what, he will still be playing.
TAB teaches you to play with someone elses logic,
not search out your own.

So discussing the pros and cons of making changes is good;
what do you gain and what do you lose,
and why.

One reasonm Ed's logic requiers so much discussion is,
that it is, I believe, far ahead in available power yet to be fully understood and harnessed.
Will it do classic licks, some for sure, some not, but I don't care..
I care if it does something new and logical, and BEAUTIFUL; for ME.

If you lose something traditional,
but gain something more functional,
with a NEW harmonic direction as it's basis,
then maybe the lost functionality is not real much of a loss

Can I play April In Paris on it,
and not lose my brain, or break a knee cap trying?

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 December 2005 at 10:15 PM.]