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Author
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Topic: Diminished Chords
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Ray Minich
Member From: Limestone, New York, USA
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posted 30 January 2006 05:56 AM
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Is there a misprint in my chord chart or do the diminished chords actually appear (for the same chord) 4 times in the 12 fret cycle on the same four strings with the same pedal combinations (A, B & E)?
That's both neat and wierd...
I gotta lay this out on a spreadsheet...[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 30 January 2006 at 05:57 AM.] |
Charlie McDonald
Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA
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posted 30 January 2006 06:00 AM
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It's that way. Four minor thirds stacked make an octave. |
D Schubert
Member From: Columbia, MO, USA
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posted 30 January 2006 06:16 AM
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This symmetry makes diminished 7th chords useful for a couple of corny vaudeville-style effects on about any string instrument:(1) Building suspense -- play chord, play again 3 frets up, play again 3 more frets up, etc. (2) Laughing (ha,ha,ha...) -- play chord, play again 1 fret lower, play again 1 more fret lower, etc. |
John Daugherty
Member From: Rolla, Missouri, USA
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posted 30 January 2006 06:47 AM
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Yes, the same diminished chord is found by moving the chord 3 frets. Augmented chords repeat every 4 frets.
You can add some nice passing chords to a song by playing an Aug7,then play the same chord 4 frets higher, then 8 frets higher, etc. . It sounds good in songs such as "Moonlight in Vermont".
I know I'm and "Ozark American", but I still like to hide and play these songs.------------------
www.phelpscountychoppers.com/steelguitar
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MUSICO
Member From: Jeremy Williams in Spain
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posted 30 January 2006 07:34 AM
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If you want to hear diminished chords and runs to full effect..listen to any recordings of Django ReinhardtJeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain |
Ray Minich
Member From: Limestone, New York, USA
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posted 30 January 2006 07:47 AM
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BTW, could someone confirm for me the pedal/knee lever/and-or string changes that need to be engaged to make the diminished chord(s)? Is there more than one change combination to get the diminished?
Thanks a bunch for the help.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 30 January 2006 at 08:21 AM.] |
CrowBear Schmitt
Member From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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posted 30 January 2006 08:35 AM
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i don't have my steel w: me so...
on E9 a Dim can be found w: lever that raises both Es a half step (F)on C6 pedals 5 & 6 |
CHIP FOSSA
Member From: Monson, MA 01057 U.S.A.
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posted 30 January 2006 09:45 AM
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A & B pedals down with E's lowered to D# and B's lowered to Bb [play any combo of strings
10 [or 12] thru 4.A classic case in the use of all 4 dim steps on guitar was in the old rock song "And Then Along Came Jane" [I think that was the title] - where the damsel in distress is tied up on the railroad tracks. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 30 January 2006 09:51 AM
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Ray, the "F" lever on E9th makes a diminished chord. On C6th use P5+P6. |
Mike Delaney
Member From: Fort Madison, IA
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posted 30 January 2006 10:31 AM
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Good comment on Django Reinhardt. The scale that goes with Cdim7 chord is-C,D,Eb,F,Gb,Ab,A,B Also try this scale over a B7 chord. The brainchild of Thelonious Monk, it gives a great altered dominant sound. The Cdim scale is alternating whole step-half step. The B7 is alternating half step-whole step. (Of course, you would begin the scale on B)[This message was edited by Mike Delaney on 30 January 2006 at 10:46 AM.] |
Doug Seymour
Member From: Jamestown NY USA
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posted 03 February 2006 03:12 PM
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The other chord that repeats is the one built on major thirds, an augmented chord. C, E & G#
repeats every 5 fretts |
Terry Sneed
Member From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA
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posted 03 February 2006 04:41 PM
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whoops.
[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 03 February 2006 at 04:43 PM.] |
Bill Bosler
Member From: Schwenksville, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 03 February 2006 06:04 PM
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The neat thing about diminished chords is you can play just two of the notes in the chord and you'll get the sound of the chord. If you need to grab a Cdim real quick, just drop back one fret from your C chord and play the Eb and Gb. |
Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 04 February 2006 05:43 AM
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To add to the suggestion of the 'F' lever, put the 9th string in there, too - it makes a nice fat chord of it!(9,6,5,4 with the 4th raised) RR |
Stephen Dorocke
Member From: Portland, Oregon
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posted 04 February 2006 06:16 AM
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also, by lowering any note of of a diminished chord a half step, you will get a dominant 7th chord with the lowered tone being the root. for example, A, C, Eb, Gb(F#)-- lower the Gb(F#) to an F and you arrive at F7 with the A in the bass. lower the Eb to a D and you arrive at a D7. .... a handy dandy harmonic device for entering into the world af altered dominants.... |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 04 February 2006 10:47 AM
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That's a world I had had hoped to avoid.  |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
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posted 04 February 2006 03:46 PM
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Roger, Have you ever tried playing the diminished 7th chords by lowering the second string 1/2 tone with the E-F change? I've been watching this thread, and your suggestion to add the 9th string prompted me to ask. A true dim. 7th should include the 4 tones. It requires picking four tones simultaneously. Bill |
Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 05 February 2006 02:13 PM
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Yes, Bill, and lots of other ways, too.I only mentioned the 9th string addition as I sometimes like that 'bottom end' in the chord. You're quite right, of course, saying that there are four notes in a 'proper' diminished chord but, as a lot of us play with three fingers, a three-note inversion is a more-than-acceptable substitution. RR[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 05 February 2006 at 02:17 PM.] |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 06:22 AM
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Roger, Many players have added the ring finger to chord grips. This of course would facilitate the playing of the proper diminished chord. I'm inclined to believe that the E-F raise and 2nd string 1/2 tone lower is quite necessary to please the discriminating ear. I'm not aware of "lots of other ways" to achieve the Dim. 7th chord. Bill |
Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 06 February 2006 09:28 AM
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Bill!What did I say to merit such a response? I only made a simple suggestion in the hope that it would be of help to someone, but now I regret doing so...  RR
PS: I guess I should have said that 'most' players use three fingered grips 'most' of the time - that's certainly the norm. I often use four, but that extra one is minus a pick![This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 06 February 2006 at 02:32 PM.] |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
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posted 06 February 2006 10:06 AM
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Roger, I'm sure that your input will be very useful to many. It's just that you were making reference to a special chord. I didn't wish to omit what I have experienced in the past. I will be careful, and tread warily on this subject matter in the future. Bill |
Charles Turpin
Member From: Mexico, Missouri, USA
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posted 07 February 2006 12:02 PM
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People there is a lot more in this Diminish playing in that to me. this is a world of its own. WHen i fall into a chromatic run on the C6th I have found if you take a diminish7th using the 5+6 plus the Knee lever that raises the A to Bb. starting at the 8th string you can constantly use chromatics moving the bar within the three fret that join anywhere in the diminish chord.Just by holding the diminsh combination of pedals. Then picking string 7 on frets say 2,3,4, then drop to string 6 then 2,3,4. You can do this right all the way back up to your octave playing a great diminshed chromatic run. Four strings higher will be your octave.
I sat one night and watch the steel player Steve , the steel player for Gene Watson play a swift diminsh run using the 5+6 combination with pedals down. Even had major and minor scales over this diminish combination of pedals . After watching what he did i realized that by having the combination of the chord already infront of him while he was playing a very fast lick. Then all he had to do was move his bar. Instead of setting and thinking everything out. Diminsh playing is a very good combination. But another way to get a feel for diminsh playing is any 7th chord three frets above will make the Dim. sound where that. The Diminsh even though it is a combination of minor thirds in harmony is also two dominant 7th chords three frets apart stacked on each other.The only trick is not to use the Root note of the seventh chord being played.
One more quick way to play a good scale that goews over a Dim chord is simply take a major dominant seventh scale then raise the root not one fret. ------------------
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John Steele
Member From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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posted 07 February 2006 12:08 PM
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Charles, that is because when you use the 5&6 pedals with the A-Bb raise, you end up with (at 12th fret) D7b9b13. It contains the same notes as Ab9...
So when you slide it down a fret, it morphs into G9, which is like going around the circle of fifths. And on it goes....
The same interesting anomalie can be found with the 8th pedal.
-John
p.s. Unfortunately, D7b9b13 doesn't come from the diminished scale, which would contain a B natural instead of a Bb. |
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