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Author
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Topic: D-10 vs U-12
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Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 09 February 2006 05:44 AM
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I'd love to spend time with a 12-string steel, but I committed to a D10 many years ago. In my case, Larry's probably right - I was following the example set by the majority of the best players, and I make no excuse for this. I took up steel after many years of 6-string playing, and was too intimidated by the apparent complexity of PSG to even consider forging my own direction back in those days.... (it was only going to be a five-minute wonder for me, or so I thought!)I'm comfortable on a D10 now, but there's a tiny voice inside me urging me to 'have a go'. The problems, though, are twofold: I earn my living doing this, so there's no time to retreat to the woodshed, and: these things are expensive! It'd be a big outlay, though I guess I'd probably get my money back if I didn't like it. One thing's certain - I would have to have that low 'D'! It's too integral to my playing for me to have to hold a knee lever in place while using it as a root-note. Maybe I will look for a modestly-priced S12....  RR |
Ronald Comtois
Member From: Bourne, Massachusetts, USA
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posted 09 February 2006 06:57 AM
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If you can do it all on one neck,why bother with two.
Ron C. |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 09 February 2006 07:59 AM
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I am in the unusual position of being a steel player who started out playing being unconcerned with country music. I played a U12 for about 5 years untill I spent time with a D 10. I think the U12 is great in theory and weak in practice. I feel like i wasted quite a bit of time with the U12. The reason the U12 has not caught on is because most pro level players don't like it. Believe me, the guys that play for a living would be happy to switch to anything that was actually better. But its not. And it has not and is not catching on. The U12 is not a new idea. Its been at least 20 or 30 years. A few major builders don't even bother offering a 12 string and of the guys that will make a 12st steel build maybe 1 for every 20. And about half of those 12st steels they did build where for some sort of extended E9. ------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website 
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Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 09 February 2006 08:57 AM
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Having thought it through a bit more since that last post of mine, I guess what I'd like is more lower-end range on E9.How much practical use that would be within the confines of a band is open to question, but it would be fun when I'm just entertaining myself in my practice-room. I think Bob Hoffnar makes a good point. 12 string guitars have been around for a long time now, yet they seem to have no more than a toe-hold on the market. In my case (I still play 80%/20% in favour of E9), an extended E9 with some B6th options might give me all I'd need. I dunno..... RR |
Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
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posted 09 February 2006 09:26 AM
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Bob, With that said, in the here and now, you would wail on an S12U Dude!First 5 years wasted?... With all due respect, you would of sucked on D10 for the first five years too. It happened to the best of us no matter what config played! Plenty of Pro's play U12, including some of the biggest names in the Texas steel community. It is cleary "catching on" with the general steel playing public, even though the masters are sticking with their bread and butter. It's all good! S12U is simply a better idea for many players buying steels today. FWIW, every thing I've heard you play Live, and on the CD's you gave me, can be done on an S12U all day long. As a matter of fact, you would be a perfect candidate to go from D10 to S12U knowing what you now know, as many of the best S12U players came from D10 backgrounds.
These are just the facts, no?... please don't kill the messenger.
Pete Burak
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 09 February 2006 at 09:28 AM.]
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David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 09 February 2006 12:47 PM
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Um, Alan, RR doesn't play a uni, he plays an E7, with double middle Es. It's the blues/gospel tuning derived from Chuck Campbell. Which brings me to my point. There are really 4 tuning families being used on pedal steels these days: E9, C6, universal, E7 Sacred Steel. They are associated with different kinds of music.Except for Bob Hoffman, the naysayers of the uni are all traditional country and/or Western swing pickers. They want the necks separate, and they want at least 5 independent knee levers per neck. They do not want to give up even one of their lick levers. That may never change. But the uni is far from a failed experiment that has outlived itself. It seems to have a growing following among the non-country/swing players of rock, blues, jazz, classical, and experimental music. They do not miss the one or two country lick levers, but instead appreciate all the versatility and extra strings and voicings that are not available on a D10. A uni is especially appreciated by people like me, who play all the non-country genres, but also enjoy getting the 90% of tradional E9 and C6 available, for when we do want to play traditional country and swing. After all, many traditional country and swing pickers have only 4 levers between the two necks, and a uni can have 100% of that. So I look upon the universal as a third tuning in it's own right, that incidentally embodies most of traditional E9 and C6. Sacred Steel E7 is a fourth tuning. Again, there are specialty licks with it that are not available on any of the other tunings. But here again, I think a uni can get 90% of that, plus all the E9 and C6 stuff not available. What the uni can do is get more of the licks of all the others than any of the others can. Of the 4 tunings, the uni is clearly the most universal. So at this point, for me, the uni has 270% compared to the other three tunings. The main thing the uni is missing is a charismatic virtuoso proponent with national recognition. Regardless of their technical and musical abilities, even the top uni players do not have the recognition of the top D10 country and E7 Sacred Steelers. Maybe it is just an historical accident. But I don't think the uni will really take off until a very top and very prominent steeler shows what can be done on a uni that can't be done on anything else. I would like to think it is just a matter of time, but who knows. There may have been plenty of virtuoso accordion players, but who cares? ------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards[This message was edited by David Doggett on 09 February 2006 at 12:52 PM.]
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Sidney Malone
Member From: Buna, TX
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posted 09 February 2006 01:03 PM
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I wouldn't be too quick to judge the S-12's capabilities by sales alone. I believe most new players pick a D-10 because that's what most players play and there's more instructional material for it. Very few ever consider an S-12 because most have never heard of one until after their well on their way with a D-10 and don't want to change horses in mid stream. There's no way to know for sure, but I would guess that 75% of all non-pro D-10 players can't play hardly anything on the C6th neck. In fact, I only know 1 non-pro who can play the C6 proficiently. I still contend that the only limitations of the S-12 comes from the player & not the instrument. There's a long list of players who can prove that to be a fact! |
Calvin Walley
Member From: colorado city colorado, USA
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posted 09 February 2006 01:24 PM
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well one thing i think we can agree on is:
anyone sitting behind a D-10 just looks impressive |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 09 February 2006 01:32 PM
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quote:
But I wonder how many of those that are seeking that extra music down there under the B string have actually conquered the music available above the B string ?
I don't think that's a valid issue. On the real bandstand, there are many times when low notes are very useful, whether you're a great player on the high strings or not. I've spent much of my life playing in 4-piece bands. When the guitar player takes his solo, I'm expected to fill that hole under him. It sounds goofy if I don't. If I play high notes, I'm likely to get in his way.
Low note rhythm parts are considerably easier, from a technical standpoint, than most solos and fills. It's a technique that, once mastered, will get you more work as a sideman. It's not flashy but it adds a lot to a band's overall sound and texture. The other musicians in the band will appreciate it.------------------
 Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog |
Glenn Suchan
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 09 February 2006 02:36 PM
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Good point, Bobby, and one I have prescribed to, also. But when playing chordal vamps in that register, be mindful of the bass player's passages or you might "step" on his or her toes and catch a Fender peghead in the parietal lobe. Keep on pickin'!
Glenn[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 09 February 2006 at 02:41 PM.] |
Sidney Malone
Member From: Buna, TX
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posted 09 February 2006 02:36 PM
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quote:
well one thing i think we can agree on is:
anyone sitting behind a D-10 just looks impressive
Calvin.....even though it is rarely admitted, I believe that is another one of the major reasons a lot of people choose a D-10. Kinda like it's expected of them.  |
Richard Sinkler
Member From: Fremont, California
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posted 09 February 2006 03:08 PM
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quote:
I believe most new players pick a D-10 because that's what most players play and there's more instructional material for it.
Sidney, I believe this statement to be partially correct. There's no reason you can't use regular E9th and C6th courses with a Uni. The only thing would be the key differences between the C6th tuning and the B6th tuning. Just because a course isn't labled "Universal" , doesn't mean it won't work. ------------------
Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic. |
Paddy Long
Member From: Christchurch, New Zealand
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posted 09 February 2006 03:31 PM
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There is another option which appeals to me as a long time D10 player and that is the 10/12 combo. Extended E9th 12 and 10 C6th -- there are a lot of times when that bottom end on the Ext E9th would be very useful, I usually whip over to the C6th to play bottom end riffs, but it would be really nice to have it on E9th.
And any perceived "extra" weight would be neglible. Would most custom shops build such a beast (I know Fulawka does)
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Calvin Walley
Member From: colorado city colorado, USA
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posted 09 February 2006 03:36 PM
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i liked what someone said on a differant thread a while back, they said that hey had both necks tuned to E-9th
if i end up buying a D-10 and tune them both to E-9th at least i would look cool as the dickens haha |
Billy Carr
Member From: Seminary, Mississippi USA
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posted 09 February 2006 04:02 PM
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Why not have the best of both worlds? Get one of each, a S-12U & D-10. That way, when a player gets tired of playing everything on a S-12U, they can simply get behind the D-10 and play two necks instead of one. Or if they get tired of playing the D-10, then just get on the S-12U. It's all there on either one. |
Glenn Suchan
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 09 February 2006 05:46 PM
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Hey Billy, that's what I do!!! Emmons p/p D10 and U12  Keep on pickin'!
Glenn [This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 09 February 2006 at 05:48 PM.]
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Sidney Malone
Member From: Buna, TX
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posted 09 February 2006 05:57 PM
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quote:
Sidney, I believe this statement to be partially correct. There's no reason you can't use regular E9th and C6th courses with a Uni. The only thing would be the key differences between the C6th tuning and the B6th tuning. Just because a course isn't labled "Universal" , doesn't mean it won't work.
Yea Richard I know it can be used....but I'm not sure the one's starting out really realize that. I've heard it used so many times as an excuse to not play a S-12. Bad information to say the least. I certianly didn't mean it to sound like I typed it. What I really meant was people are told that there's not as much instruction material as an excuse to not go in that direction. I try to steer away from tab based instruction anyway. It tends leads me down the road of memorization if I'm not careful, so I seldom use it. Nothing like a live teacher!!! I still say a person just needs to figure out which one, or both, works best for them. I would never question anyone's legitimate reason for wanting to play any or many tunings. But when someone implies the S-12 is not "up to par" so to speak, it just ain't so!!! There's just far more available on any of these tunings than most any of us will ever use. Then at the same time, they are all missing things that could be there. No tuning has "all" the musical possibilities. So we just pick what we like and go with it...... |
Richard Sinkler
Member From: Fremont, California
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posted 09 February 2006 09:57 PM
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Sidney.. I agree with you and I didn't interpret your statement that way. My post was more to get the idea out to newer players that they didn't need to just use Uni courses. I think a lot of them wouldn't realize this. |
Glenn Suchan
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 10 February 2006 06:33 AM
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As a player with both a very standard D10 guitar and a "bare-bones" U12 guitar, I don't think there are any shortcomings to either instrument when it comes to learning how to play music. I believe the key to learning, appreciating, and most importantly, having fun playing ANY tuning on the pedal steel guitar boils down to two basic points:
1. Understanding basic music theory and why specific
chords are used in song.
2. Knowing how to play scales and where to find specific
chords on your tuning (copedant) of choice. This
means understanding which strings the pedals and
knee levers effect and knowing how that relates to
chords and scales.I honestly believe, if you can do these two things with your prefered tuning, any tuning can be effective. And what's more, if you can do these two things, you can use any teaching literature (E9th, C6th, B6th, etc.) and translate it to your prefered tuning. The added bonus to this is, when you see tabbed literature and translate it to your tuning, you'll understand why it's tabbed the way it is, instead of just memorizing it's patterns. So, my answer to the initial question is, try as many of the tunings as you can and learn the one you like best. Chances are, it will serve you well and you'll have fun playing it. Keep on pickin'!
Glenn[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 10 February 2006 at 06:38 AM.] |
Ronald Comtois
Member From: Bourne, Massachusetts, USA
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posted 10 February 2006 07:06 AM
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Seems to me that the U12 uni. verses the D10 problem revolves mainly around the 9th string D note. If you must have that particular note on that string, slap it on a knee lever that will get it for you when you want it. The double neck mystique is one that will be very difficult to shake. Double necks are very impressive to look at! How many times have you seen players with a D10 that can"t play a lick on that bottom neck. Jeff Newman once told me " you"re better to be good on one neck than to be "half-ass" on two, pardon the lingo.
Ron C. |
Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
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posted 10 February 2006 08:53 AM
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And, of course, we all now what they say about pickers who "Blame the Instrument".I like to think of every instrument I've ever played, or will play, as being "Universal".
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Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 10 February 2006 09:17 AM
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well of course there is always another reason to buy a D10..whether you plan on playing the LOWER TEN or not...RESALE... I dare state that an S10 or a D10 will always be a comodity.. If you are gonna sink a few grand into an Instrument, rule of thumb says..be wise.. I am of the mindset that a D10 out sells any other configuration on the NEW and USED market..bar none... and we haven't even talked about playing a lick yet...
this may get ugly..especially with this top ten thing going on..
My favorite TOP 3 Players..DO NOT play Uni's ! But the UNI playes are in the top 5 or 10 ... ------------------
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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite
[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 10 February 2006 at 09:20 AM.] [This message was edited by Tony Prior on 11 February 2006 at 08:49 AM.]
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Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 10 February 2006 10:06 AM
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I still don't understand why WHO PLAYS WHAT is relevant to whether YOU prefer a D-10, S-10, or S-12 guitar. Everyone is different and it's wonderful to have so many choices. Most of my favorite players play D-10's too, but I can still butcher their licks on my S-12 as well as I could on a 10-string.Why can't we just allow each individual to choose without imparting our own prejudice? I respect those who have played both and returned to a D-10, but I know as many who changed over to a S-12 after many years playing a D-10. I don't even listen to the opinions of those who are badmouthing something they have never tried. I've played both and made my choice. I grant others that same latitude. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 10 February 2006 12:32 PM
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quote:
Seems to me that the U12 uni. verses the D10 problem revolves mainly around the 9th string D note. If you must have that particular note on that string, slap it on a knee lever that will get it for you when you want it.
It's not the same. Not at all. If I'm raising my F's for a diminished chord, I would have to raise B to D. But if I want the D to be the 7th of a low E-based 9th chord, I would have to lower the E to D. So it takes two knee levers to replace the D string. And since a knee is tied up, you don't have as many options available for the other strings. quote:
My favorite TOP 3 Players..DO NOT play Uni's ! It may even be top 25, or 50 or maybe 100 !
Joe Wright is in my top 3, and Jeff Newman is in my top 5. Still, I don't play U-12 or D-10. Neither gets down to the basics like an Extended E9th, IMHO.------------------
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog [This message was edited by b0b on 10 February 2006 at 12:37 PM.] |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 10 February 2006 12:42 PM
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quote:
If I'm raising my F's for a diminished chord, I would have to raise B to D. But if I want the D to be the 7th of a low E-based 9th chord, I would have to lower the E to D.
I do both -- have for years -- there are valid reasons for doing both. If I want a dim or 7b9 chord I'll lower 8 to D and lower 7 to F. E to D on 8 is like P6 on C6.------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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Ernest Cawby
Member From: Lake City, Florida, USA
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posted 10 February 2006 01:52 PM
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Larry Bell have you noticed the guys playing u12s are very good at it, yourself, Joe Turner, John Le Mastersif I could play half of wht you and John play I would switch to u12 in a heart beat, I tried one and spent just one evening with it and carried that new Zum back to Jack conyer.ernie |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 10 February 2006 04:14 PM
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I agree with b0b that it's not the same having the D on a lever, but that is why I prefer it on a lever. I can get it when I want it, and it's not there mucking up my low strums when I don't want it. And I like the sound of moving back and forth to the D with the lever. And I don't have to worry about blocking it when I go to the next chord without it. Sure there are a few specific things I can't get on my uni that some people can get on a D10 or extended E9, but there are also other things I can get that they can't. You can't get everything on anything. You makes yo choices, pays yo money, and you takes what you gits.------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards |
ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
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posted 11 February 2006 06:38 AM
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If you must have the B,D,E,F# sequence in the middle, then add a lock to your Uni to hold it in when you want...that adds another way to use the Uni...talk about a flexible structure! |
Ronald Comtois
Member From: Bourne, Massachusetts, USA
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posted 11 February 2006 07:38 AM
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The bottom line is, play the configuration that makes you happy!I have always blamed Jimmy Day for my desire to play steel. Met him at the Lone Star Ranch in New Hampshire in 1962 or '63. He was playing with George Jones at the time;I was just mesmerized by the sound that came out of his Sho=Bud amp. I had the opportunity to talk to him after the show , and that is what led to buy my first steel in 1964;it . Ron C. |
ed packard
Member From: Show Low AZ
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posted 11 February 2006 08:46 AM
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Hey RC...I know that place well! |
Jon Jaffe
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 11 February 2006 10:09 AM
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I have been playing a U-12 since '79. Last night at a gig I was thinking about this thread. We were playing "Time Changes Everything". When we were done I realized that I had used 5 different pedals and 3 knee levers. There was no conscious decision to play either E9 or B6. It was all the same instrument. There was no locking in or out. Sometimes a chord or phrase is available when my foot is by the AB pedals and sometimes it seems more natural when my E is flatted. To me that is the advantage of the universal. |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 11 February 2006 11:14 AM
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Jon
You said a mouthfull, brother
I've been saying that for years
It's ONE BIG TUNING with all combinations of each and a bunch of synergies that aren't there on two necks.------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 11 February 2006 11:22 AM
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On a practical level, there's just too many strings on a 12 for me to locate my 'home' string in an emergency.I've played 10 stringers for so long that I just can't immediately see the 8th (home) string when I play a 12. (Extended E9) |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 11 February 2006 11:22 AM
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Amen brothers Jaffe and Bell.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 11 February 2006 at 05:16 PM.] |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 11 February 2006 12:55 PM
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Sir Richard,
You get used to it after about 30 years -- at least that was my experience. All seriousness aside, I sometimes have a hard time getting used to a 10-string after only playing 12's for so long. But I sit down to my 12-string and my fingers go right to 8,6,5. I home in from the 1st string and actually wrap my pinkie around it some times. It's the same distance from the top down on a 12 as it is a 10. Problem I have with a 10 string is that pesky 9th string that I eliminated decades ago. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 11 February 2006 05:24 PM
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Richard it takes a couple of weeks, but you do get used to a uni after awhile. What I found when I switched from 10-string is that I was keying on where the fret symbols down the center of the fret board were in relation to the root string 8. When I switched to uni, the symbols down the center had shifted over one string, and that threw me off at first. I ran a red marking pen down my side of string 8 for awhile to help me find it. After a few weeks I didn't need it anymore. Now I key on the fact that there are 6 plain strings and 6 wound strings. The first wound string is 7, which I skip (in the root chord), and the 2nd wound string is 8. That works on 10-string or 12-string, unless you use a wound 6th string. By the way, harp strings are colored for just this reason.------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards[This message was edited by David Doggett on 11 February 2006 at 05:26 PM.]
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Jim Meiring
Member From: Highlands, North Carolina, USA
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posted 19 February 2006 06:19 AM
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I am currently trying to get a grip on the U12. I'm lucky to have never progressed very far on my D10 and that was 11 years ago. There are some really solid arguments for all of the steels and the one that really matters is what really sounds the best to each of us, and can we get our feet and hands to deliver that sound. Thanks to all that have voiced an opinion. |
Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 19 February 2006 06:44 AM
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One thing I miss about my old 12-string universal is the low G#.....I really wish I had that on my 10-string. That string resolves a lot of low-octave runs and licks.I enjoyed my 12-string, and would like to get one again in the future. |
Ernie Pollock
Member From: Mt Savage, Md USA
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posted 25 February 2006 11:17 AM
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I think the 12 string steels that come with some sort of locking device for the B6th tuning works best, keeps your leg from going to sleep & rotting & dropping off during a B6th performance. mine looks like this:
pic 1
pic 2
pic 3
I have had other guitars with locks, but none worked as smoothly as this one, its the best I seen out there in locking the 2 E's and the 2nd string Eb to C#. Every S-12 Universal should have one. I know, the guys that like to work in & out of E9th & B6th will not agree, but if your playing a lot of 6th stuff your going to love the lock.Ernie Pollock http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm ------------------
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Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 25 February 2006 12:04 PM
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I started off on a borrowed Maveric, but got a U-12 after a few weeks and have been playing one ever since. One of the things I really like about it is the extra bass. With the E9 changes I've put on the bass strings, my guitars have over a 5 octave range. Never having had a D string, it's possible I'm missing something, but I'm happy with what I've got. I guess it's all a matter of personal prefernce. |
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