If I unsolder one of the loops to the changer, slip
this little screw fitting doodad on the cable, and
have it smack into a piece of right angle steel (with
a washer superglued on to keep the screw thingie from
twisting in the hole)...

It'll stop the loop I want to stop. So what happens
to the loop on the other end? Does it increase the
pull? Just need adjustment? Screw things up?

Is it a dumb idea? Or...ahem...elegant in its simplicity?

I did find a pair of small, flat wire rope clamps at Home Depot that might do the same thing. But have to move the clamps on the cable to tune the stop unless I can find the "ferrule" Donny mentioned and something it fits on. Might be a bit tough, since I have no idea what sizes, how they're attached (and to what?) etc.

Edited to add - the angle irons, according to a bunch of people, are plenty strong for stops. If not, I'll just use the ol' torch to solder a nut or something in the corner for strength. I could be wrong, but it seems those that have used them have had success - those that haven't used them don't think they'll work.... ;-)

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 23 March 2006 at 02:42 PM.]

My only other comment would be...

You sure are going to a lot of worry and trouble. Why don't you just put a simple setup on the thing and play it?

These wire rope clamps from HD actually did the trick for the moment, until I can figure out how to do a screw adjustment of some sort. Like I said, I'm not a machinist and don't have any tools...or knowledge...in that area, so I have to adapt off-the shelf stuff unless somebody knows where I can get the right kind of parts!

Anyway, with a little back-and-forth tweaking both stops worked pretty well. It's not ideal, I know - but not having any parts sources, it's the best I could do. I searched all over the forum and it looks like nobody makes this stuff - or if they do, they don't advertise it. Several people suggested Duane Marrs, but he seems to have disappeared.

Anyway it plays in tune, so I'll live with it until a source for some real stops appears.

------------------
Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;

[This message was edited by Peter on 25 March 2006 at 01:37 AM.]

By the way - that is an astoundingly accurate picture. How the heck did you DO that?

I'm still going to swap out the cable clamps for smaller and better-fiting split bolts as soon as I can locate some. But overall the system works perfectly. I'll post better pictures later. I'd still like to install a more professional stop system, but since I can't find any sources, it looks like this will do just fine.

With this out of the way, I can concentrate on...what was it? Oh yeah - playing... ;-)

But then I DO need to fool with the electronics. Because I can.

Peter, a couple possible problems. Well, the first is just a parts issue - I'll have to swap out the angle irons for the next largets one and drill a hole for the screw - the existing agles don't have enough room for the extra hole, and the second hole on the larger ones would cause the screw to completely miss the rectangular stop.

The second problem might kill the idea, though. I'm concerned that the cable will twist the stop down (up in the drawing) when the stop hits the screw, lengthening the pull just a hair - and a hair makes a big difference in the tuning of the note.

Test performed using a bolt held against the angle and pressing the pedal - darn it, yep it twists.

So - it's now obvious the tuning adjustment has to be some sort of adjustable ferrule mounted in the angle iron hole that the cable runs through. That's the only way the pul and stop will be straight and accurate.

So I'm back to Donny's bike parts idea. Guess I'll take a spare angle piece to my bike shop guy - he does wonders with modding mountain and racing bikes, he'll probably get a kick out of solving this one...if we can figure it out it'll make a unique addition to the pictures on one wall of hundreds of bikes he's worked on.

That's unless anyone has another idea thanks for all the input - the guitar is really coming together and is really fun to play. 2 or 3 other minor tweaks to make, then it's essentially done except for electronics modifications, which are a never ending experimentation process. But holy smoke, does the two-pickup system and Tele control setup give it some killer sounds.

quote:

---

By the way - that is an astoundingly accurate picture. How the heck did you DO that?

---

And here is a Sho-Bud barrel. I dont know yet how to "glue" it to the bracket. Or maybe it doesn't need to be "glued" to the bracket. It will then work as an TUNABLE SPACER.

------------------
Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;

[This message was edited by Peter on 25 March 2006 at 09:06 AM.]

This morning I fixed the stops and all the little hangs by re-routing cables, put lighter springs on the lowers, lubed the heck out of it with silicone or Teflon depending on what parts, reset all the turnbuckles and pedal rods...and it plays like butter. Very light touch, smooth, and stays completely in tune. I played the heck out of it for an hour and didn't have to retune or adjust anything - it was that stable.

And it sounds amazing with two pickups - very distinctive tones.

So while I need to really install some more permanent stops, it's basically DONE!! finally! Thanks to everyone who chipped in advice, parts etc - especially Harry Sheppard, Russ Tkac, Lee Wheeler, Fred Shannon, Steve Gambrell, David Coplin, Dave Zirbel, Al Gordon, Donny Hinson...and most importantly Anita and Sneaky. I know I forgot a few people - please forgive me.

I'm gonna go play now...

I said

quote:

---

Putting stops on the pedals won't work as the cables are somewhat inconsistent in their length, due to temperature etc.

BUT

Here's the workaround to allow double flattening or sharpening on a "1000"
NOT cables on the knee lever just rods with loops and the old Sho-Bud halfstop barrell.

---

and

Baz

------------------

quote:

---

Steel players do it without fretting

---

quote:

---

Unfortunately I wouldn't know a Shobud half-stop part if it bit me, nor where to find one or how to hook it up, so I think it'll have to be more basic than that - if not, it's going to sit for quite a while until I can afford to have somebody build or install those things.

---

Is your suggestion to convert those particular pulls to rods? If so, that's beyond my capabilities - I need to stick with the cables for now. Please remember I'm really new at this and my "guitar" experience is in electronics, amp repair and finishing....not mechanics. I've played stringbenders for years, but have no idea how I'd ever build one myself.

Like I said, off-the-shelf parts are my limitation, having no fabrication, thread tapping or other machining abilities/equipment. I do notice in the pic what looks like a stop on the knee lever, to the right of the shaft - is that something you can buy, or is it something you have to make? That would be a great improvement in stability over my angle irons, even though they're working OK.

And FWIW around L.A. we have such little temperature and humidity variation that I doubt the cables would be affected. Guitar s in most other regions/countries suffer from tuning variations, "fret sprout" etc - never get that here at all.

And so far - after yesterday playing the heck out of it, it sitting last night, and checking it this morning after temperature variation (it got down to a bone chilling..heehee...55 or so last night...) it's STILL all in tune.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 26 March 2006 at 06:15 AM.]

Got it all figured out now - John Cooper is supplying the Shobud Barrels. He looked at pictures of the guitar and thought the barrel over the cable would be the perfect, easily-tunable stop.

I asked him about the brackets used for the stop, and while he said he could make me some it's really not necessary - what I'm using should work just fine, plus the holes happen to line up just right without cables rubbing.

Peter - that second picture is perfect. Exactly how it'll be set up. I'm going to keep that for reference if you don't mind - I may be making cables for some folks and that would come in very handy explaining how some things might work. I don't want to send it to anyone without your OK, though.

It's been a week - only minor tuning adjustments, and our weather has varied wildly. It's very, very stable.

I can't remember (and don't want to look back) if I mentioned what I'm using as "oil". Everything is lubed with Sherwin-Williams "Tri Flow" Teflon lubricant. no sticky oil mess, no gumming of parts, and no dirt pickup. It dries with a microscopic Teflon film. I found it a couple years ago looking for stuff for my son's skateboard bearings (he's a competitve skater) and used it on my b-benders.

It's great stuff on the steel. Really quieted and smoothed things. Also seems MUCH quicker. It was very noticable in the changer, which has a ton of friction parts. I'd recommend i over oil, which when it breaks down and gets gummy means dismantling of the guitar to clean parts properly.

Another note to Fender players - take all your changer finger springs to a hradware store and find ones a little lighter. Might have to cut them to fit. It is REALLY worth it - the lowers become amazingly quick with a light, smooth touch. Still returns very quickly as well. Probably the most important "feel" change on the guitar.

Now I'm just trying to figure out how to get the same effect with the raises....

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 01 April 2006 at 07:09 AM.]

And you are welcome to use the images for whatever you want to use them for.
After all, this is the Internet and its purpose is to share information.
If I did not want to share them, I would not have published them.

Clyde - That's a great idea! Thanks. Easy to do and that really should help stabilize it even more.

It sure is fun to play. Feels smooth controlled, and the tone is completely out of this world. I need to figure out how to post some sound cips of the tonal variations with the two-pickup and tone control setup.

The elctronics are one thing about a lot of "modern" steels that seems really limiting - no volume and tone controls on the guitar. The lack of volume control makes sense because of the usual volume pedal (although there's an interplay between volume/tone controls on these circuits that makes it a bit different than a floor volume), but the tone control makes SO much difference, it just seems odd that i'ts not a standard thing on every guitar.

I hope b0b wont shoot me because of topic drift

------------------
"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Anyway - pics follow of the John Cooper-supplied Shobud barrel stops. Just absolutely the perfect part for this use.

And one of a cool little nod to a certain someone at the 12th fret....You either know what it is, or you don't.

About the nod at the 12th fret:

Pterodacyl (I had to look that one up in the dictionary)...as seen on his Nudie Suit.

Think of how many steels most of us have owned and played, then traded up to something we just knew was better....newer, "more modern", more expensive, fancy schmancy guitars with precisely machined parts and beautiful exotic woods (nothing against fancy, I've owned a couple of real "lookers"...was even married to a couple of real "lookers".....traded them in too)....

then think about how many different steels he owned and played over the last 40 years or so.