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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

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Fred Justice,
Fred's Music www.fredjusticemusic.com
Rains Steel Guitars

I play a lot of guitar also and the problem is there with both instruments...once about half way thru the first set I got up off the steel and picked up my guitar. The lead player came up to me on the break and asked why I got off the steel. I told him that we didn't need 2 steel players and with him playing steel licks with his bender
we were beatin that sound to death...he got the idea and we were fine after that.

Kevin, you didn't say how old you are or the approx age of the bandmates, not that it really matters.

If they are older players and are still into the I MUST PLAY LOUD all the time thing, then you really just need to move on as there may be no hope for them.

IF they are younger and you enjoy the band and there company..just tell them like it is...

Volume technique is something that musicians learn and quite frankly, some learn it well..others sadly refuse to learn it at all.

In your scenario it is apparant the the Lead Guitar is an out of control ego case...

Ask him if he ever plans on "Lifting" while you play the Steel parts...

Quality Musicians don't have to be told about this..they just do it...

You obvioulsy understand this..

Others in your Band may not even care about it...

I have sat in with bands where the playing and over playing was so obnoxious that what I did was to just sit back and basically do nothing. A band leader who hired me one time asked me why I wasn't playing much..I just gently stated that I felt I was stepping on the Guitar players toes ! The next set the Guitar player started giving me ALL the solo's..which was wrong as well..we finally reached a happy medium.

Ya gotta speak up...

good luck

t

The last gig I played had a lead guitarist who really understood how to interact with a steel. It was a real pleasure to work with him, and I told him so.

There used to be a 6 piece band around here with 4 lead players. Lead guitar, fiddle and mandolin, steel, banjo and sax, and keyboards, as well as bass and drums of course.

They made written outlines of every tune, and assigned each fill amd ride (or part of a ride) to a specific player.

While it's true that many will tell you that they must play to make money, when you don't enjoy it, it's just not worth it. There's other ways to supplement your income while you woodshed and look for a really good band who will appreciate you, respect you, and play good music too! Face it, most of us started off playing with very non-professional players, but if you don't try eventually to rise above that level of performing, you'll be stuck forever in a quagmire that will sap your enthusiasm, and limit your growth as a musician.

I played bass for 15+ years before moving to the steel and played with lots of lead players, some loud, some not. Even having a leader pointing to who's going to do the fill/ solo/ head part will really help. Taking some time beforehand to arrange the songs, even better.

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Emmons S/D-10, 3/5, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

How much space and how aggressive is appropriate depends on the style of music, of course. But even very aggressive but good punk bands like The Clash used appropriate dynamics - I never heard them stomp all over the singer or soloist. Aggression can be good, but discipline is needed.

I disagree that this is just about lead guitar players. It's about musicians who don't understand when and how to play in a band, or can't control their egos. I've played with sax, keyboard, guitar, fiddle, mandolin, banjo, and other instrument players who just never knew when to back off. I do understand that a lot of lead guitar players have large egos. That was my primary instrument for a long time, and it does sort of go with the cultural turf. But it is possible to control this.

I also disagree that just cranking up to 11 and blowing them away is always the correct solution. Sometimes, that's what is called for - but other times, this is about power in a band, and that can just make it worse or get you fired. These days, even in country music, lead guitar is what most people out there in radioland seem to want to hear out front. That is part of the problem, IMO.

quote:

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... fish around for subs to cover for you as you gracefully make your way out of the mud and into the enjoyable, lucrative world of musicians that don't suck.

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Instead they are walking all over Kevin. What does the word aggressive conjure up. To me I see a little wolf pack (i.e. the band) and Kevin is not getting to the meat.

I agree that a band should be a harmonious amalgam of intertwined sounds, but I suspect this one isn't. Maybe he does not have his choice of folks to pick with? He does not want to play to his music room walls, so he finds a band.

It is fun to play with other people, and I am sure that at times they are in a groove. Kevin can either intellectualize his place to the other band members or do it with his guitar.

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Are you kidding? A band without ego's

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I think Tony is right, it's not just guitarists. Alot of harmonica players are bad at this, and so are alot of keyboardists. Even some steelers. I went into the Carter booth at the Texas show while 4 good steel players were lined up taking turns on tunes. One of the four just didn't "get it", and soloed quietly through everyone else's solo.
If I was Chuck Barris, I would have gonged him !
-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

[This message was edited by John Steele on 29 March 2006 at 05:09 PM.]

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Are you kidding? A band without ego's. It takes a certain amount of chutzpah to overcome performance anxiety.

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Sure, a lot of performers have strong egos. But in a team situation, personal ego needs to be controlled for the benefit of the team goals. We have all these threads about what traits make a "professional". The ability to control ones ego is one of the most important of these traits. Supporting players must support. This does not mean constantly spewing it all over the stage like a cat marking its territory. IMHO.

Many of us can relate to you on this subject of other players not giving any credence to you. It all comes down to one or two ideas, one of which is RESPECT, or lack of it. You can ask them kindly between a set to share backrounds/breaks with you....and then begin playing the next set and it's the same hoggish routine on their part....now you've ruled out ignorance, because they ARE NOW aware that their playing is not allowing you any place in the song. Hmmm. What's next? Ok, try to send them that "subliminal" signal of "out db'ing" them in a pocket between the voices where they are constantly playing. Maybe just once or twice. They still devour everything. Your creativity is nearly quenched. What other option is there than to put your bar down, or just do padding, or end your playing with the group?

Kindly say to the bandleader, I just can't play with someone who doesn't comprehend the fundamentals of music and it's backround instrumentation.

Watch out for the ones that tell you that YOU ARE PLAYING TOO MUCH AND TOO LOUD when you know you really aren't. Sometimes they are the hypocrites - playing in the manner they're accusing you of.

Search for some players that RESPECT you and your playing. It might be worth the trip.

Just my opinion.

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Mark Wayne

www.authenticrecording.com

[This message was edited by Mark Krutke on 29 March 2006 at 07:28 PM.]

[This message was edited by Jon Jaffe on 29 March 2006 at 10:10 PM.]

Those of you who do have problems with a regular picker you work with, try bringing him/her to one of the steel shows around the country and have him/her listen to the backup bands there. I've never heard any of them noodling around while someone is playing or singing. Roger Miller from Iowa and Jim Flett from Winnipeg are two that come to mind as fine examples of professionalism.

Here is what I love to do with our lead guitarist. At practice insist that you play the solo in songs first and then let the Lead Guitarist shine after you. Come up some ideas why before hand. Practice like this and during practice play your own solo. Pay very close attention to the lead guitarist's solo that will come in the next break. Memorize it! When you get home practice his solo until you can play it better than him. Never play it during practice or in front of anyone else. When you get on stage blaze through his solo better than he would and before he gets his round, do it note for note. When it comes time for him to solo he will either have to duplicate what you already did or come up with something of the cuff. 9 out 10 times this will really knock him back a notch! If he complains you fire back with him playing over everything you play.

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It sounds like your lead guitarist is suffering from "I am the center of the universe" syndrome.

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Any guitar player who thins that is clearly delusaional and in need of psychiatric help.

After all, any sane person knows, the center of the universe is ME.

unless you SEE the steel, you'd never know it was there sometimes.. In my band the other lead guitarist IS keen on dynamics, but with the bass player@ 300 watts, keyboard at 200 watts, lead player with 100 watt Marshall 4x12,and a loud drummer, AND all out vocals combined, we make this band UNWORKABLE as far as dynamics.... we've talked it out but it doesn't ever change... Unfortunately, I just stick big ear industrial ear plugs in before we start, tough it out each set, and stick my meat hooks out at nights end for my bread... My 80 watt Fender tube amp is hopelessly over matched in this environment, and distorts terribly when I try to cut through the mix by cranking it...lost cause....

First of all you seem to be refering to "dynamics", that is the difference between the softest and the loudest level of sound your band makes. If the band is always at full volume, than maybe you are in a crappy band.

The second and maybe best piece of advise I can give you and others regarding lead guitar players (and I am one myself) is make sure that their guitar amp is POINTING DIRECTLY AT THEIR EARS. I MEAN DIRECTLY AT THEIR HEAD! make sure that you raise the amp as high as possible so that, in the best possible situation, the offending lead guitar player if he turns and looks at his amp, is literally looking into that 12" speaker. As long as the guitar players amp is pointing directly at his head, your problems will be reduced or eliminated.

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. . . most of the guitar players that I have had a problem with, just don't no when to lay out...

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That I did know when to lay out is probably the best compliment I can remember getting.

[This message was edited by James Cann on 30 March 2006 at 06:34 PM.]