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Author
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Topic: Fret board position
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William Peters
Member From: Effort, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 29 March 2006 03:21 PM
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I notice that my guitar plays 20 cents sharp at the octave frets compared to the open tuning. In order to play in tune at the 12th fret, I have to bar almost an 1/8" behind the fret marker (toward the nut). Measuring from the center of the nut's axel to the 12th fret shows 12 1/8" and the scale is slightly less than 24 1/4" (I measure 24 & 3/16" from the center of the nut axle to the center of the changer axle), so it is a hair off toward the changer. Further measurements with the tuner showed that to be true at all the frets, they are all shifted toward the changer by about 1/8"Is this a common thing that I should not worry about? Is it fairly easy to move the fretboard? ------------------
Bill http://www.wgpeters.com
Mullen RP SD12U, Carvin SX200C
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John Bechtel
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
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posted 29 March 2006 06:37 PM
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I believe most fretboards are only capable of one (1) use. Usually when they are lifted, they become too wrinkled to lay flat for a second instalation. Unless they are mounted with screws or brads, once they are disturbed, they're useless a second time!------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
n.t.s.g.a. #90
’05 D–10 Derby
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15”
Current Equipment
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John Bechtel
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
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posted 29 March 2006 06:47 PM
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According to your explanation, the problem is your overall string~length from Nut to Bridge. If you measure from Fret #12 to Fret #24, it should measure 6 1/16” on a 24 1/4” scale. If it does, then your fretboard is most likely correct for a 24 1/4” scale. In that case, your fretboard and actual scale~length will never match even if the fretboard was moved, because; there is no correct position to place it!------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
n.t.s.g.a. #90
’05 D–10 Derby
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15”
Current Equipment
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Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 29 March 2006 07:11 PM
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The frets are only a crude indicator. They're meant to get you "in the ball-park", and your ear should do the rest. (I've seen several players play very well with no fretboards!) I wouldn't get real upset about 1/8", youi can easily adapt to that error.Fretrboards can be removed by setting the guitar in the sun, or using a hair=dryer to warm the necks and soften the glue. A piece of fishing line can then be "sawed" back and forth under the fretboard to remove it, or some people use a putty knife. I like the fishing line best, as it doesn't harm the guitar or warp the fretboards.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 29 March 2006 at 07:18 PM.] |
William Peters
Member From: Effort, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 30 March 2006 03:54 AM
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John Bechtel said: quote:
According to your explanation, the problem is your overall string~length from Nut to Bridge. If you measure from Fret #12 to Fret #24, it should measure 6 1/16” on a 24 1/4” scale. If it does, then your fretboard is most likely correct for a 24 1/4” scale. In that case, your fretboard and actual scale~length will never match even if the fretboard was moved, because; there is no correct position to place it!
From fret 12 to fret 24 does measure 6 1/16", so I think the scale on the fretboard is ok, and the fret board just needs to be shifted. That is further confirmed by checking each fret against my tuning meter. Each fret is out of tune by the same distance, (1/8"), but of course the number of cents increases as the frets get closer together. I eliminated parallax by setting a square beside the string, and using a knife blade on the string instead of my bar.Donny Hinson said:
quote:
The frets are only a crude indicator. They're meant to get you "in the ball-park", and your ear should do the rest. (I've seen several players play very well with no fretboards!) I wouldn't get real upset about 1/8", youi can easily adapt to that error.
Donny you are probably right, because it took me almost 2 years to notice  But, I'm sort of anal about such things, and not being the best player, I need all all the help I can get . ------------------
Bill
http://www.wgpeters.com
Mullen RP SD12U, Carvin SX200C
[This message was edited by William Peters on 30 March 2006 at 03:55 AM.]
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Larry Phleger
Member From: DuBois, PA
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posted 30 March 2006 08:48 AM
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What brand of steel do you have? If the company is currently in business, they may be willing to correct the problem, since it appears the instrument was defective when it left the factory. |
William Peters
Member From: Effort, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 30 March 2006 10:25 AM
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Its a Mullen U-12. I think it would be easier to move it myself than to box it up and risk its safety in shipping. I think I will just let well enough alone until I change the strings, then I will measure again with new strings just in case the strings themselves have some effect. I'm not quite convinced that I am not the problem either |
Larry Phleger
Member From: DuBois, PA
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posted 30 March 2006 11:33 AM
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I have a Mullen S12, and Del was very helpful with a problem I had when I first bought it. It might be worth your while to give him a call. He may be able to make you a replacement fretboard for your actual string length. |
Alan F. Brookes
Member From: Brummy living in California, USA
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posted 30 March 2006 12:05 PM
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Before you move the fretboard do some arithmetic on the bridge.If you measure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret that should be the same as the 12th fret to the bridge. I'm a luthier, and on fretted instruments the calculation has to include pull-down onto the frets, but with a steel guitar it's a lot simpler, since the pull-down from the steel bar is minimal. Without looking at the instument, I think your problem is the bridge location. |
Larry Phleger
Member From: DuBois, PA
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posted 31 March 2006 06:08 AM
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Wouldn’t it be much easier to make the nut-bridge space correction at the nut? Changing the bridge would require moving the entire changer. In making the adjustment at the nut, you would need to reposition the roller nut and tuning key assembly. On my Mullen, there is a space between the nut end of the fret board and the nut. This would allow for making the adjustment without removing the fret board assuming that the distance between the 12th fret and the bridge is accurate. |
Alan F. Brookes
Member From: Brummy living in California, USA
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posted 31 March 2006 09:10 AM
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It's unlikely that the fretboard will be marked out wrong, as they're mass produced. That being so, the only reason you would move the nut would be if the distance from the nut to the first fret is out. You can't solve a wrong bridge position by moving the nut. If you could, imagine this: what if you moved the nut six inches back; your fingerboard would then be way out of whack compared to the open strings. But the instrument would still play in tune over the fretboard as long as the bridge position was accurate, and it would only be the open strings that were out. So, the only time you would ever consider moving the nut would be if the distance from the nut to the first fret were out. If you have Excel on your computer I can send you an Excel spreadsheet where you just input the string length and it will immediately calculate all the fret positions. |
Larry Phleger
Member From: DuBois, PA
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posted 31 March 2006 09:37 AM
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I see what you mean Alan. The original post states that the problem is between the 12th fret and the bridge. I guess my solution would only work if the problem was between the nut and the 12th fret |
William Peters
Member From: Effort, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 31 March 2006 10:21 AM
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Guys,According to my tape measure, the string length on my guitar is 24 3/16 from the center of the nut axle to the center of the changer cams, just shy of 24 1/4. Fret 12 on my fretboard is as close to being at the physical halfway point as I could put it. Physically, it is right. But harmonically it is a little off. Here is an experiment I did: I took the back side of my pocket knife and used it as a bar. I slide the knife edge along a string over fret 12 going back and forth until both halves of the string played the same pitch. That spot is slightly behind the fret marker every time, and every string. Thats also the spot that chimes the loudest and clearest. But I think Donny is right, Its probably as close as any other guitar, and its closer than the visual errors of parallax. I guess its just the nature of the beast. So I have decided that I should adjust, and let the fretboard where it is.
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