As some of you may know,I have been having tuning problems lately.So today,I decided to set up the guitar from scratch,New Strings fitted,tune the pedals and Knee Levers as per the standard E9 copedant.

Problem is,the Levers don't move the strings they are supposed to move.
This is how the guitar is set up.

The A/B/C Pedals are correct,but;

D Lever raises strings 4 and 8 to F
E Lever lowers strings 4 abd 8 to Eb
F Lever raises strings 1 and 7 to G
G Lever lowers strings 2 and 9 to C#

According to various standard tunings I have seen,this is not correct.

Question is,does it matter?
Do I need to change it?
If I need to change it,how do I do it?

The guitar is an All Pull setup.

Could this account for my tuning problems?

Thanks in advance.

Alan

Thanks for the reply.

I was under the impression that,as I am a newby,the standard tuning for the E9 would have been different.The tuning I have for standard is,

D lever string 2 to D, 6 to F#
E lever string 4 and 8 to Eb
F lever 4 and 8 to F
G lever 1 and 7 to G

This is not how mine is set up.

I guess I just need to remember which lever does what.

Alan

LKL raise E's
LKR lower E's

RKL Raise 1, Raise 2 , Raise 7
many lower 6 here instead of raise 7

Me, I personally feel that lowering 6 on the same lever as raising 1 is a conflict. but hey..whatever...

RKR Lower 2 ... 1/2 and full tone

LKV lower 5 and 10 1/2 tone

I believe much of this came from the standard Sho-Bud configurations. as all of my Sho-Buds were like this. All of my Carters were like this. My Emmons had the R knees reversed.

But as you properly stated, the player needs to know what each lever does, regardless of location.

good luck with your study

t

Have fun

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SHO~BUDS,FENDER AMPS& GUITARS, TUT TAYLOR RESO'S

"What a long, strange trip it's been"

[This message was edited by Larry Robbins on 09 April 2006 at 05:03 AM.]

Going along with this, I far prefer to see tablature written with accidental symbols (# or b) rather than letters to denote pedals or levers because recognizing what MUSICAL INTERVAL is involved with what string on a given pedal or lever is a valuable lesson for the player. You get past 'pushing the pedal' and recognize you are 'raising the 5th string a whole tone'. A VERY IMPORTANT LESSON INDEED.

Your tuning problems have nothing to do with what changes are where on your guitar, but you may well have mechanical issues. One common problem is tightening the nylon nut too far without sufficient pedal travel.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Thanks for the replies.

The reasoning behind my thinking it was wrong is this.

In a previous thread b0b said I shouldn't be afraid of using the A Pedal with the F lever,but if that statement is based on a standard E9 tuning,then I won't be getting the effect He thinks I should.

I have tried using the Levers,only to find that either they were not doing anything,or what they did do didn't sound right.

So if someone say's that Pedal A and the F lever should give a certain chord at a certain fret,on my current setup,it won't.

Maybe I got it all wrong,but your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Sitting in the playing position,the Pedals are A,B,C left to right.

Thanks

On your left knee
The lever moving left is called LKL (left knee left) and is usually the lever that moves E's to F (sometimes called the F lever)
The lever moving right is called LKR (left knee right) and is usually the lever that moves E's to D# (sometimes called the D lever but, like I said before THIS D E F G stuff is NOT STANDARD)

On your right knee
The lever moving left is called RKL (right knee left) and its function varies depending on the player's preference
The lever moving right is called RKR (right knee right) and it usually lowers the 2nd string from D# to D. It sometimes has a half stop at D and then lowers a full tone to C#, sometimes in concert with the 9th string lowering a half tone to C#.

The question has NOTHING TO DO WITH D, E, F, G. The issue is WHAT CHANGES ARE WHERE? (i.e., what strings are changed on LKR, LKL, RKR, RKL)

YOU MUST LEARN WHAT CHANGES ARE WHERE and 'TRANSLATE'. Some people have their F lever on LKL, others have it on RKR or any other lever. What's important is to recognize which PHYSICAL LOCATION includes which LEVER FUNCTION. A+F can be the first pedal and the LKL lever on some guitars and the first pedal and RKR on others. THIS DOES NOT MEAN YOUR GUITAR IS NOT PLAYABLE OR EVEN THAT IT'S NOT STANDARD. You have all the standard changes if you raise and lower E's a half tone and lower the 2nd to D. For the fourth lever, most lower 5 and 10 from B to Bb but many raise 1 and 7 from F# to G (as you appear to do) or F# to G#.

Get it?

Sounds to me as though your knee levers are not properly adjusted in the first place, complicating matters even further. What you really need to do is to figure out how it IS set up. Look underneath. There should be pullers or 'bellcranks' on a cross shaft for each pull. Find the cross shaft for each lever and determine what strings they are set up to raise or lower. Don't go by D/E/F/G, go by LKL/LKR/RKL/RKR.

Let us know what's where and what's working and what ain't. We'll try to help.

Anyone in the UK near Alan who could take a look at his axe? Sounds like it needs about an hour's work by someone who knows what they're doing.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 09 April 2006 at 11:09 AM.]

You are correct,I was labelling the Levers D,E,F,G based on their physical location on the guitar,mainly because I didn't know any better.Now I know what to do,maybe I can progress further,thanks.

Regarding the tuning problem,would you please elaborate on your comment regarding the Pedal travel and the end tuners.

You have pretty much described my problem,everytime the guitar goes out of tune,(It's usually the pedals it affects) I need to turn the end adjusters more,till I end up with them so tight,I can't move them.

Maybe with a little guidance,I can eliminate this problem as well.

Many thanks

With the old strings on the guitar,I back off the end tuners till they are just touching the changer.

Put the new strings on and tune open,no pedals,no levers.

After giving the guitar time to settle,I tune the Pedals,one at a time,then the levers,then go back and check the open tuning,which usually needs adjusting.
Re-check pedals and levers.

Once in tune,I play a couple of songs,and the pedals are flat,so I re-tune them,obviously by turning the end tuners.

This is how come the end tuners go tight,I am constantly having to re-tune the pedals.

I will admit,that I have raised the Pedals using the adjusters on the pedal pushrods,I needed to make the pedals higher,could this have something to do with my problem?

Sorry to be so ignorant,I hate being thick.

Thanks

Most levers have a setscrew or some type of mechanism to increase or decrease the travel -- i.e., how far the lever moves and thus how far the string can be raised or lowered. You need to set that adjustment so that the pull that requires the most travel on that lever has enough room to complete the raise or lower.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

* they may not be fully stretched. Check with a tuner then manually (but gently) pull on the string slightly. Is it still in tune? If not, it hasn't stretched enough and will go out of tune.

* you may have changed the gauge of one or more strings. This may require re-adjusting the travel (see my last post)

My best advice at this point is to STUDY THE CARTER STEELGUITARINFO.COM SITE THOROUGHLY. There is a wealth of information there and the entire steel guitar community is indebted to Bud Carter and John Fabian for this wonderful resource. Your particular brand of guitar may not be represented there but most all-pull guitars are relatively similar.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

My email address is at the top of my post.