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Author
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Topic: Playing steel by "ear"
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A. J. Schobert
Member From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???
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posted 23 April 2006 04:05 PM
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I have always looked up to musicians that can play a cd and pick it out on there instrument, I was starting to get the hang of this with my 6 string guitar but I hung it up when I got hooked to PSG, now it seems this is really alot harder to cypher out what I'm hearing, given the instrument playing may have 10 or 12 strings and e9th or c6th tuning, I try to use sheet music as a road map to help somewhat, any suggestions on how you got over this hurdle? Maybe this is why all the good steelers stand alone. |
Smiley Roberts
Member From: Hendersonville,Tn. 37075
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posted 23 April 2006 04:16 PM
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quote:
I try to use sheet music as a road map to help somewhat...
Are you referring to steel tablature? If you can read that stuff,consider yourself lucky. I can't read it. Nor can I read "real" music. The only thing I can read is the "Nashville number system". I,pretty much,hafta listen to the record,& try to duplicate it that way. ------------------
~ ~
©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.
www.ntsga.com |
Brett Day
Member From: Greer, SC, USA
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posted 23 April 2006 04:21 PM
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I'm one steel player who plays along with records, and to me, it's the best way I know of to learn the steel. I'm not usually a solo player, but every once in awhile I'll teach myself how to play a song with no other instruments, and I'm not sure how I do it. The best advice I can give to a steel player who wants to learn a song by ear is to listen to what the steel's playing on a record, then see if you can do it the same way, or if you feel like you can't play what's on the record, try to come up with your own steel part. Brett, Emmons S-10, Morrell lapsteel, GFI Ultra D-10[This message was edited by Brett Day on 23 April 2006 at 04:23 PM.] |
Wayne D. Clark
Member From: Wisconsin, USA
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posted 23 April 2006 04:48 PM
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I'm with Brett on this one A.J.. When I was 12, I think I rember being 12, well any way My mother (rest her soul) talked me into taking Hawaian Guitar lessons on a 6 string no name. Read Music and all that, with the agreement that I could have a Lap Steel after a year of lessons. Well I got my lap Steal and proptly forgot what little understanding of notes and #'s & b"s I had learned. Got my self some 45RPM of Hank Williams and Hank Snow and started playing thos records over and over and over and over until I got their Steel Players licks and turnarounds. I have had to do that to this day. With the Pedal I start with learning the Cord progressions, then try the licks and trunarounds. I did learn to read Tab, and that helps, but I have to hear the music to get the feel of it. With E9th your A, B, Pedals and RKL & RkR (my set up to raise the lower the 4th * 8th strings) You can use a lot of what you already know from the lap steel on the Pedal such as your set up on the 10,8,6,5,4,3, strings and how the AB Pedal combo effects your cord changes. Well I have probably went on more than necessary. But playing by ear takes a lot of listining and trying.Wayne
MSA D10 8/2 |
A. J. Schobert
Member From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???
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posted 23 April 2006 05:42 PM
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Thanks my 6string I was refering to is a standard guitar, Smiley yes I can read music but it does no good if you can't apply it to PSG, and guys that play by ear seem like they don't even have to deal with all that extra info. Tab does help, but truthfully it seems like a crutch, I use Tab off and on and maybe its just one of those things that will click. |
Mike Winter
Member From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
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posted 23 April 2006 05:52 PM
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I'm a play by ear guy as well: bass, 6 string and now steel. When trying to learn a new song, I find it helpful to figure out the chords of a song for 6 string, then play along on the steel with those chord changes in front of me. That way I know which chords to slide in and out of. The internet is a great resource for getting lyrics and chords. (Ha! The old days of having to keep stopping and starting records to get lyrics are over...for the most part!) ------------------
Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com |
Dan Burnham
Member From: Martin, Tennessee, USA
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posted 23 April 2006 06:39 PM
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A.J."Praise to BOB" Bob is the only one that I know that has detailed the steel guitar to the grand staff in music. There are a few ways to accomplish the task set before you. 1. You will have to take the grand staff and match your copedant to the grand staff. 2. You will notice that you will not have every note chromatically unless you add floors or knees. 3. On the notes that do not have match, you will have to indicate a pedal, knee combination with a bar slide of one.
Option 4, which I am having a blast with. Look on the forum under tunings focus on BOB's F Diatonic tuning for 10 or 12 string.
NO SLANT ON ANY PLAYERS ON THIS FORUM FOR WHAT I AM ABOUT TO SAY. Most players play by ear, for the most part or read tab. I can count on my hand probably all the players that are crossover musicians which play other instruments and can sight read and play by ear. No one to my knowledge has ever set out to write a course that ties these two together. If you want to get started reading and playing look at the F Diatonic. In Closing,
I'm not critical of all the players. You have to understand that the Pedal Steel Guitar has to be the most complex but beautiful instrument in the world. It has the potential to do what no other instrument can do. Try tying these lose ends together to develop a course that does what you want. I've working on this for 2 years. Good luck and if I can help let me know. Dan |
Papa Joe Pollick
Member From: Pontiac, Michigan, USA
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posted 23 April 2006 06:48 PM
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Another "ear" player here that first works out the chords on 6 string,then I write the chords in-to "BIAB". Whats nice is being able to slow the tempo down and gradualy speeding it up to where it's supposed to be.After I'm comfortable whith it I transpose it to other keys.So, any song that I can play decently,I can play in several different keys.Work for me.PJ
PS good thread. |
Larry Strawn
Member From: Golden Valley, Arizona, USA
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posted 23 April 2006 07:28 PM
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I used to lay in bed at night and in my mind I'd see these chord changes on my 6 string, then I'd tranpose them over to my
steel.
Now it's the same thing, except I'm seeing them on my steel guitar neck!I'm finding now it's easier for me to pick up chord progressions on my steel rather than my 6 string, and since I play out of "positions" [right or wrong?] once I learn the song in one key I can play it in any key. I do regret that I never learned more theory, I'm sure it would make this and the chord construction process a lot easier for me. I agree the internet has made this process faster than spinning a record over, and over picking out the chords! lol.. Larry spelling
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"Fessy" S/D 12, 8/6 Hilton Pedal, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" [This message was edited by Larry Strawn on 23 April 2006 at 07:30 PM.] [This message was edited by Larry Strawn on 23 April 2006 at 08:53 PM.]
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Jeff Colson
Member From: Rockford Illinois, USA
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posted 24 April 2006 07:44 PM
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I've played by ear all my life. 6 string, steel, or any thing else i've tried. Wish I could read music but I like to listen to a great steel part copy it as close as I can then put a little of my own phrasing on it. Even when I've learned to play something by tab through a course before I get it all the way learned I change it to suit me. Jeff |
Mike Randolph
Member From: Cook, Minnesota, USA
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posted 24 April 2006 09:49 PM
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Ear and number system, guess thats the way it will be.
Mike |
James Morehead
Member From: Durant, Oklahoma, USA
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posted 24 April 2006 11:27 PM
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Some one once replied when asked if they could read music, he said "Yeah, but not enough to interfer with my playing!" |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 25 April 2006 01:53 AM
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By ear, and the 'dots' only when required..------------------
quote:
Steel players do it without fretting
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Don Walworth
Member From: Gilmer, Texas, USA
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posted 25 April 2006 06:23 AM
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I’m ambidextrous - I screw things up equally with either hand. Still at the stage of getting my finger picks on the correct fingers and facing the proper way. I can read music - can read tab - and read Nashville Number system. None of this helps at my stage of learning. Still working my mind the idea that just because the music is going up a whole step does not mean the bar goes “up” as well. Advantage I have is music theory (keyboard) - now I’m working on the mechanics of my guitar --- eye sees, mind converts, hands do their thing. Most times they get mixed up -- I think my hands have a mind of their own. Bottom line: am I having fun? You bet!! Thank goodness for this forum!
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Don West Coast Double 8 Nashville 112
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Barry Blackwood
Member From: elk grove, CA
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posted 25 April 2006 08:45 AM
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Play by ear - they do get tired after awhile, though .... |
Mark Lind-Hanson
Member From: San Francisco, California, USA
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posted 25 April 2006 08:53 AM
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I do just sit down with records and see if what I come up with is anything close to what the steel player played- often as not though I try to play something else, along the lines of what a Second steel would play to that. One thing that I never got(but I'm much closer to it now) was the co-relation between notes on the staff and notes on the strings. The primary books (Winston/Scotty's)don't really have that- but Rusty Young's book does, & now am going to be busy with picking into that for a while up ahead. That was the biggest gripe I had about those two books. Once I can break
that little ground I think I will have a much better idea of the sort of licks & roadmap of where I am hoping to get to. I was always better at playing from ear or from my head than following sheet music but I DO read it & write it, but I just don't generally PLAY FROM it. |
John De Maille
Member From: Merrick,N.Y. U.S.A.
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posted 25 April 2006 01:53 PM
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Being able to play music by ear, any music, is a true gift. I'm lucky enough to have that gift and it has served me well in my meager musical career. But, there are times when, I've stumbled upon a certain phrasing or a significant lick, that I can't readily find. That's where TAB comes in. Not all steel players set their pedal and knee lever pulls to a uniform copedant and sometimes those unique tunings cause a loss in an immediate find. By using Tab notation, ( if it's available for the tune ) you can usually figure it out, or can get very close to the tune. It's a tool to use, and I highly recommend it.
As to using actual music notation, you would have to know most, if not all, the musical notes on the fretboard, plus the pedal and knee lever changed notes. I can not read music proficiently enough to do that, so I play mainly by ear and use tab when I'm stuck on something. I guess it really comes down to what you're attempting to play on the steel. Complicated "Arias'" or orchestral movements would seem to be a nightmare for an "ear" player, whereas country, blues, rock, and some jazz shouldn't be to much trouble for an accomplished "ear", partime tab player. There are so many variants to this instrument, but, there are many ways to learn to play. |
Tony Glassman
Member From: Roseburg, Oregon, USA
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posted 25 April 2006 02:43 PM
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Another great tool is a "Slow-downer". There are several software programs and CD players that allow you to slow steel licks or solos down to 25-50% while retaining the original pitch.
In the old days we used turntables to slow down 33-1/3 rpm albums to 16 rpm (talking books for the visully impaired) which was pretty close to 1/2 speed.I've always learned a lot from stealing other players' licks. The process improves your ear, elevates your playing technique, increases your lick vocabulary and provides a great launching point for own ideas. Unfortunarely, it's very tedious work.[This message was edited by Tony Glassman on 25 April 2006 at 02:45 PM.] |
A. J. Schobert
Member From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???
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posted 25 April 2006 04:24 PM
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I've been meaning to get a slow-downer tony thats good advice. |
James Cann
Member From: Phoenix, AZ (heart still in Boston)
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posted 25 April 2006 05:33 PM
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quote:
I've played by ear all my life.
As have I, and I'm always astounded at what I can do with steel when all I can do with 6-string is strum chords! Go figure! quote:
I’m ambidextrous - I screw things up equally with either hand . . .
. . . as for this, "I know S____'s Creek very well."[This message was edited by James Cann on 25 April 2006 at 05:34 PM.] |
CHIP FOSSA
Member From: Monson, MA 01057 U.S.A.
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posted 25 April 2006 06:08 PM
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Here's what I do for the slow-down approach.I use 2 different programs. The 1st one is Goldwave. This has the record option "what-you-hear". Anything played on the PC will be recorded. That recording can then be saved in a variety of formats including MP3 and WAVE. I usually save as MP3. Unfortunately, Goldwave has slowing down capability, but not pitch control, in the same move. The key is changed when slowed down. So I go to Audacity which allows importing either a WAVE or MP3 file. Audacity can slow/speed the tempo without changing pitch. A little bit of doing, but once you get the hang of it, it is a tremendous tool. Goes fairly quick.
www.goldwave.com costs around $50 [used to]
and http://audacity.sourceforge.net Works well for me. It's great to be able to slow something down and hear it in a really different light. [This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 25 April 2006 at 06:11 PM.] [This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 25 April 2006 at 06:13 PM.] |
Mike Winter
Member From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
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posted 25 April 2006 06:54 PM
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Chip and others if interested -- Windows Media Player plays mp3's, and it has the slow down function, and doesn't change the key. It comeswith Windows,so it saves having to buy something extra.  ------------------
Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com |
CHIP FOSSA
Member From: Monson, MA 01057 U.S.A.
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posted 25 April 2006 07:28 PM
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Thanks Mike...that's good to know. I bought Goldwave years ago when I had WIN98. WMP didn't have that capability then. And Audacity has been with me for the past 3/4 years. I was unaware that WMP can do all that. I just don't take the time to read their tudors/manuals. BUT, WMP probably can't do a lot of other things that GW & AUD can, like sound enhancements/effects.
Also, I don't think WMP can record "what you hear". Anyway, I'm stuck with GW cuz I paid for it, dammit, and I'm going to use it, just for that reason. It's a good program, tho. Thanks again.[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 25 April 2006 at 07:32 PM.] |
Tim Harr
Member From: East Peoria, Illinois
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posted 25 April 2006 07:38 PM
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When I played in the US Army Band (Jazz Ensemble) the "joke" going around was : "How do you get a Guitar Player to turn down? ...."You put Sheet Music in front of them."Those guys never messed with me much. I read and write music fluently and used to teach the Jazz improv master classes. Good joke anyway.. Tim[This message was edited by Tim Harr on 25 April 2006 at 07:39 PM.] |
Tony Glassman
Member From: Roseburg, Oregon, USA
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posted 25 April 2006 11:50 PM
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Two great products are
1] "Slow-Downer" which is a software program that allows you to download songs. You can them slow them down w/o pitch change, make a loop change and ,to a degree, filter out other instruments.Approx $45 http://www.ronimusic.com
2]The "Tascam CD-GT" is a CD player that will allow you to record, slow down [w/o pitch change] and loop licks directly off the CD. This is the easier of the two, as it requires no computer interfacing.
It also has a guitar input, headphone out, many effects (including reverb and delay), a tuner and capacity to change song keys on playback.
Approx $175 http://www.tascam.com/Products/cdgt1mkii.html
[This message was edited by Tony Glassman on 25 April 2006 at 11:51 PM.] [This message was edited by Tony Glassman on 25 April 2006 at 11:53 PM.]
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John McGann
Member From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA
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posted 26 April 2006 06:06 AM
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Regardless of other skills, a musician (not entertainer but actual musician) without an ear ain't goin' too far ------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more... [This message was edited by John McGann on 26 April 2006 at 06:06 AM.]
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A. J. Schobert
Member From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???
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posted 26 April 2006 09:47 AM
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Thanks chip I think this will help I will have to put the gold wave on my wish list that may help speed things up thanks! |
A. J. Schobert
Member From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???
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posted 26 April 2006 10:09 AM
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It's odvious your are talking about me John, after all I started this thread, Do you play steel? Do you have one? I love it and it is just something that is taking me a little longer than a standard 6string I couldn't find anything about PSG on your web, maybe I over looked something, The guys I mentioned above they went out of there way and gave good advice not something like I ain't going to far, maybe as a musician, but in life if you know me what I have acomplished and overcame is far more rewarding, how many peaple do you know wake up and look forward to going to work? or happy to see there family? etc. I think I went very far thank you. CARTER D10 |
Parr Bryan
Member From: Texas USA
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posted 26 April 2006 10:55 AM
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Like others have said, write the chords down on paper then find these chords in there various places on the steel and you'll usually find the lick.On C6 do the same thing but here one of the top 3 (4) strings will be the root note to the chord (ex. C chord, root note is C like bass player plays). Just find that root note like playing the bass with and without pedals and you will find the chord your looking for most of the time. After awhile you'll be jumping around the neck and finding all of the chords fast in learning a new song. C6 is soooooooo coooollll!! |
Rick Garrett
Member From: Tyler, Texas
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posted 26 April 2006 11:06 AM
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Yeah man I love C6th too! I play alot of stuff by ear. I plug in whatever I want to play along with and then find as many of the chordal possibilites that I can. Started on the first 6 strings and worked my way up to the last 6 strings until I could work all 12 strings into what I'm playing. Now I seem to be gaining on what I'm able to find. Rick
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Larry Strawn
Member From: Golden Valley, Arizona, USA
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posted 26 April 2006 11:30 AM
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A. J.I sometimes get in a rut and couldn't hit my B$%# with both hands, and the steel is even worse!! Then suddenly when I least expect it, it just falls into place. Now I'm not saying I'm hard headed, or a slow learner,,,,, BUT... lol.. I hear by ear pretty well, just wish I had more academic skills! |
Ben Jones
Member From: Washington, USA
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posted 26 April 2006 11:35 AM
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AJ I dont wanna speak for John but I dont think he meant any offense or was speaking to you directly. My impression was he just meant a good ear was pretty much essential to be a good musician, and to some extent thats pretty true.Mike-I was just snooping around my WMP (latest version running windows XP) and dint see the slow down function anywhere. Can you or anyone else tell me where it is located? is it a plug in you have to download or something? I was just about to buy the tascam slow down thingy but would love to save myself the $175. I was just thinking about this this morning, and relating it to my own 6 string experiences. Comparing what I had learned on my own from records versus what i learned from the few lessons i had...I came to the conclusion that both had been essential to my development into the 6 string shredmaster I am today (joking, I am okay) and decided that while I have been taking PSG lessons for a few months now and studying some written material and so forth, that i really needed to get started on learning some stuff from cds because some real revelations can come from figuring stuff out on your own that cant come from having the tab or having your teacher show you. thus my interest in the slow downer. Thanks everyone, great topic. [This message was edited by Ben Jones on 26 April 2006 at 11:38 AM.] [This message was edited by Ben Jones on 26 April 2006 at 11:39 AM.]
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A. J. Schobert
Member From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???
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posted 26 April 2006 01:19 PM
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Ben thanks for your response sometimes when an individual would write something it is easy to take it out of its meaning I may have done that. I'm glad I mentioned this thread cause I want to look up a slow downer that stays in pitch. and also keep working on my chords and thus break things down on records(cd's) I think this is really the key to anyone having this difficulty. One thing that is really hard is cyphering out if the artist is sliding the bar or appling a pedal or knee lever I would guess a strong chord foundation would govern what you would do as well as take time, I really wish I had alot of time to just play! carter d10 |
Ben Jones
Member From: Washington, USA
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posted 26 April 2006 01:48 PM
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I figured out how to work the slow downer on the windows media player...its hidden in the play menu until you are actually playing the song is i guess why I didnt see it right away. I tried it out and it worked great!! Now I'd be remiss if i did not mention this treasure trove of a site for mp3 clips and tabs: http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html god bless them! right click on one of the mp3 links "save as" to your desktop, then when its done loading click "open" to open it on your windows media player, while its playing go to the "play" menu, then "play speed", select slow, put on repeat, and drive your spouse or pets crazy while you practice that same lick over and over least thats my plan!
Thanks for the tip Mike, while the tascam slow downer looks great and probably has a few more feature (well definetly has many more features), you cant be FREE. |
Dave White
Member From: Fullerton, California USA
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posted 26 April 2006 02:03 PM
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A.J.--Playing by ear is a gift but you have to work at it a little. I'm a 5-month newbie to PSG. I played keyboards a little before I took up PSG, so the way I learn songs is figure out the tune and the chord progressions on the piano first, then translate it to the PSG. It helped me a lot to learn all the basic chord positions and scales on the PSG, so I can "transfer" songs from the piano to the guitar. A lot of tunes that only have 3 or 4 chords are easy for me to figure on the guitar alone, but the piano sure helps. Other folks on here have mentioned they do the same thing with 6-string guitars--it's just a question of what you're used to. You'll find the more you do it the easier it gets, and yes, playing along with recordings is a big help and really helps you improve your playing. Good luck and I hope you are enjoying the Pedal Steel as much as I do.-----Dave |
Ben Jones
Member From: Washington, USA
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posted 26 April 2006 04:03 PM
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heres another tidbit someone passed along to me that has helped:when figuring out a song, find the root note on the eigth string first..just slide around and guess till you find it. Once you have that, you have your 1 chord in its various voicings, then its usually just the 1 (root), 4, and 5 chords and in no pedals position we all know where those are(no pedals , pedals down, then pedals down two frets up). Now find those chord positions in pedals down position 8 frets up the neck. That'll be about 80% of most songs. Occasionally they throw in the relative minor or 2 chord i think it is so if you have your circle of fifths memorized you can cut down on the guess work for that chord that isnt a 1, 4 or 5. hope i explained that right an dit helps a little...it helped me out some. |
Steven Black
Member From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA
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posted 26 April 2006 04:24 PM
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I use to play by ear until I started getting my ear lobe caught in the strings, and the doctor told me that he is tired of handing out free pain killers for me, I finally took advise from my good friend Gary Phillips to go buy some finger picks, he said it works better, just kidding, I think learning your chord structure helps a lot, and what key does the somg start on. |
Wayne D. Clark
Member From: Wisconsin, USA
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posted 26 April 2006 05:37 PM
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I notice every one has the same basic thought on this subject. Playing by ear required some basic knowledge. And a lot of us agree it begins with chord structure in given Keys which we all seem to agree repeats it self no mater what the Key. With that Basic knowledge (Cord structure in a Key) can carry a PSG player a long way. Then how do the AB pedlas give me that Versitility I want. So I created my self, as most of you have a Cord Chart. I started with the key of "G" a nice mellow Key. Well the key contains G C D or 1 4 5. 3rd Fret 8th Fret and 10th Fret. NO PEDAS. becoming familiar with those Tones gets one started playing by ear. Next G OR 1, 3 Fret, with AB Pedals Egaged gives me #4 or C on the 3rd fret and two frets up to the 5th Fret AB Pedals Engaged gave me D or #5. Now I have two variations I can Play in the Key of G. For a third variation I moved it up to the #5 position 10th Fret open D, and with AB down I had a G or #1 and two frets down on the 8 fret I hsd a C or #4 and If I wanted to vary the C or #4 position I could go up to the 15th Fret No Pedals. That gave me three variations on the key of "G'. Well now all I had to do was Transpose the other Keys, for the principle was the same. An with the ear becoming familiar with the Variation on the Key of "G" it bacame easier for the ear to become familiar with the other Keys and their Variations. But it does take Practice like any thing else. ALL DIETS WORK IF.you read the fine print, exercise. practice. I'M STILL LEARNING MY SELF, BUT AIN'T IT FUN!Wayne
MSA D10 8/2
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