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Author
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Topic: Players switching from D-10 to U-12
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David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 02 May 2006 11:08 PM
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Roger, some of the things you describe probably are unique to E9 with D on string 9. But remember that you have learned how to do those things because they are there to be done. One tends to take whatever tuning one has and learn to get as much as possible from it. Some of those things you describe cannot be done on C6, or for that matter, any other tuning but E9 with D on string 9. Some people have actually tried adding such a string on C6, likewise they have tried adding a 6th between E9 strings 4 and 5. So the limitations you are worried about are not unique to the universal tuning.Likewise, there are many things that can be done on a universal that cannot be done on standard E9 or C6. For example, in B6 mode, when playing the V6 chord (or V7 chord with the B pedal down), you can let off of the E lower lever and the chord resolves to the I chord. It is a beautiful and simple and very useful change that is not available on either standard E9 or C6. There are many, many more. You don't miss them on a D10 because you have never had them available. The universal tuning is not merely an approximate duplication of E9 and C6. It is a whole 3rd tuning in its own right. It can do many things neither E9 or C6 can do. Likewise, C6 can do things that cannot be done on E9 or a universal; and E9 can do things that cannot be done on either C6 or universal. So what? You take each tuning, and you do what you can with it. One could also create a T10 with a third tuning, or a Q10 with two additional tunings. I have considered putting a universal tuning and a Sacred Steel E7 tuning on a D12 (Bobbe Seymour thought it was a great idea - you would have it all. But somehow neither of us have gotten around to doing this - maybe because it is just too much). Neither a D10 or universl would be able to do things that could be done on such instruments. But most people who play a D10 or uni aren't losing sleep over that. Likewise, there are plenty of people who play a D8, with or without pedals, or a nonpedal S8 or S6. They are not necessarily worried about what they miss by not having a D10. If you are happy with a D10, so be it. There are many, many things you can do on a universal that cannot be done on a D10. But that doesn't bother you, nor should it, because you have no idea what they are, and you have your hands full learning to do everything that can be done on a D10. The same would be true if you had learned to play on a universal, and had no idea about what can be done on standard E9 with that D on string 9. But if you want to try a single 12-string tuning (for whatever reason), I think a U12 will give you much more than either an extended E9, S12 C6, or Sacred Steel S12 E7. The combination of E9 and B6 in a single 12-string tuning is simply brilliant and powerful. It is not a D10. But it is a whole world of its own, in a single neck. |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 03 May 2006 06:43 AM
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One thing I missed when I played a U12 (5 years) was the simplicity of scale construction on the E9. Strings 9,8,7,6 are all whole steps apart. (With a 5th string lower you have half the neck in a whole tone scale !) A simple example is if I play a no pedals scale on the starting on the 8th string I have a certain set of options. If I play the exact same scale pattern 2 frets up on the 9th string I have a different set of options. An added bonus besides the intervalic options is that each position has its own sonic caracture which gives me more room for expression.I switched from an E9 to a U12 and then to a D10. I can see how with the changes available on the U12 how you could get most of the same combinations but in my case it just never clicked on the U12. Things instantly became easy and natural on the D10 that used to involve mental effort on the U12.
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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website  [This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 03 May 2006 at 08:51 AM.]
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Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 03 May 2006 09:28 AM
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DavidThanks - you're absolutely right, of course, and that particular facet of the E9 (using the ninth string as the root) is my favourite E9 characteristic. I can get goose-bumps noodling around in that area, as it's so removed from the more conformist role of the tuning. I love the more modern 'pop' changes it gives me. One change I've made to my E9 is to switch the LKV from lowering the 6th string to raising it a tone - now, at fret 1, with LKV, LKL (E-Eb) and my C pedal (Day set-up) I have a C9/6, or the equivalent of the 7th pedal on C6th. (I don't miss that G#-F# lower, as I never used it anyway.) That new LKV pull also gives me (along with my 'Day' B & C pedals) an F#7th in the open position - add the third string to the grip, and there's a well-balanced inversion of F#7(#9) too. If I keep going like I am, maybe I'll finish up getting an extended E9 (my E9's getting a bit universal-like as it is!) so I can have the bass strings, yet still retain my beloved 'D' string  .... Anyway, I appreciate both David's - and Larry's - clear and logical thinking on this complex issue. So much to figure out, and so little time..... RR |
Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 03 May 2006 10:03 AM
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Just a 'PS'....I hope it's clear that I wasn't trying to be contentious is any way - my post wasn't a challenge to the Universal guys, but more akin to someone (me) looking over his garden fence at his neighbour's yard, and seeing what he might do to improve his own lot.... I didn't have a 'C' neck until 2000 (after 20-something years of E9), so it was inevitable that I would seek out some of the less-well-trodden areas of E9 so that I could be a more complete player, and find a way to get at least some of the flavour of C6 into my playing. Now I have the double-neck, yet I'm far more comfortable on E9 as you'd expect. I tend to use C6th for its more generic, swing-orientated sounds (oh, and I love Travis picking on it!), and confess that I'm more limited in my scope on that tuning. I could be a perfect candidate for a 12-string guitar of some sort.... RR |
James Quackenbush
Member From: Pomona, New York, USA
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posted 03 May 2006 03:48 PM
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I was not all that use to a D-10 when I went to a U-12......I have to say that when I did go to a U-12, I watched that Universal VHS tape from Jeff Newman , and not only was I playing some nice Swing tunes, but the whole relevance of the 6th tuning mixed with the 9th tuning made complete sense ..... So I learned backwards....It took the Universal tuning to show me how the C6 neck and the E9 neck worked together ....I just didn't get it on the D-10 , and now I understand it ...Similar to what Billy Carr was saying except in reverse for me ..... JimBTW .....Something else that made more sense to me at the same time was switching to Day pedals , but that's another thread !!....[This message was edited by James Quackenbush on 03 May 2006 at 03:50 PM.] |
Fred Glave
Member From: McHenry, Illinois, USA
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posted 03 May 2006 08:04 PM
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The U12 tuning took me a little while to adjust to, but it's like driving a new car: It feels strange at first but you still know how to drive so it all comes together. I have an old Fender 2000 with 4 added knee levers that I basically learned how to play on (still learning). I still play it alot and don't have much trouble switching back to my Sierra Crown U12. What I find to be the negatives on the U12 is the spacing of the strings. The U12 strings are so crowded together I felt like a bull in a china shop. The pedals are also smaller and close together. And finally, I do prefer the tone and sustain of my old Fender. The strings and pedals give me plenty of room too, ..But!! The things that I can do on the U12 that I can't do on the Fender are amazing to me. I remember Jeff Newman stating in a U12 lesson, or article that you should keep the E9 and B6 modes separate, but I can't help but blend a little of the two together in certain situations and think of the U12 as one guitar and one tuning with a lot more pedals and levers than either by themselves. Anyone else see it that way? That, to me makes the U12 so interesting. | |
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