Jim was kind of amazed.

Then I had him try the Delrin bar.

Again, a look of wonder and puzzlement. So far, everything SHOULD have sounded like garbage. Or a banjo. But didn't. Sounded fine, with slightly different nuances like many bars.

Then the last one - a gray nylon/molybdenum (MDS Nylon) bar. That's when the confusion started. It wasn't possible it could sound like this, per conventional wisdom.

The nylon/moly bar was warm, had nice sustain, a smooth feel and is VERY light. Interestingly, NONE of the bars sounded like the rumored "banjo sound". All slightly different, each has their own place - but none were unusable in a normal playing setting, and most people probably would not know the difference. Plus, there were two big differences - size; each was 1 1/4, except the delrin with was 1 3/8; and weight, which was a fraction of a "normal" tone bar.

It was fun hearing them on more "normal" setups than my Fenders/low-powered tube amps and hear exactly the same kind of results.

They sure are fun to use! Thanks to David Mason for having the wherewithall to try something different - because it works. And FAR better than most people STILL probably think, even after reading this post. I had to check my ag wen I got home to make sure they were all still in there...hehehe.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 05 August 2006 at 09:28 PM.]

I don't think anything can top that.

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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

I have made many 1" bars out of various plastics and the weight dips below what seems acceptable to me to remain musical, they're more like a novelty b@njo/koto sound (which does have it's uses, of course - just not very often, please). I like 1.25" and 1.375" bars for the ease of handling - I have made some 1.5" bars that do begin to get bulky as far as muting behind the strings. I just bought but haven't yet received some 1.25" delrin stock which should make a fine, fine bar too - some of this stuff is pretty expensive to buy retail, so I mostly depend on Ebay gleanings. (It's not the cost-per-foot that bites so hard, it's the eight foot minimum order and $37 shipping charges....)

The good news is I can make any length or nose contour possible - because maximum weight is hardly an issue I personally like to use the longest bar I can easily handle, 3.875" or even 4" with a rounded butt. The larger diameter bars do tend to "sitar-out" on full chordal slants, so in that respect the 1.25" bars are more versatile than the 1.375" ones. The bad news is I have a pretty busy life and can't bang these things out like a factory, I could speed up my processes if enough people show some interest in buying enough bars but for now it's all slow, one-at-a-time custom work.

[This message was edited by David Mason on 06 August 2006 at 06:21 AM.]

...old Firesign Theater line. Just made for a fun title.

Re the Delrin, we were using it at low volume, and clean. I noticed the same thing cranked up and with a little dirt - it REALLY changes and warms up. for most players here though, the application would be "clean" so that's why it was described in that context.

On the Zirconia bars, the material itself is hard enough, but light. Can you get to a point where a bar is too light? In other words, if a bar is too light, do you have to compensate by pressing down on it a little harder to keep from getting string buzz? And if so, is the extra pressure needed, easier to put up with than an extra few ounces of steel weight?

RE zirconia bars...check the density for Zirc in general and you will find that it is about 3/4 that of tool steel. Also check scratch/abrasion resistance, hardnsess, and elasticity values, all of which (along with attainable finish/smoothness) are factors in a "good" bar.

Re that Svendaal cat and his egg, what kind of yolk is that? Albert will play with anything he can get his hands on...including one of the first Zirc bars.

Jim P now has the setup to show the difference between instruments, strings, pickups, pickup positions, bars, etc. re tone and sustain complete with printout...expect some interesting info from Jim to blow up or confirm some of the PSG world myths.

"Also, Jim, it would seem to me that softer composition will absorb more of the vibration energy from the strings, thus decreasing the sustain, but giving a more mellower (warmer) sound."

Actually, this is where things get weird. That's what I though as well....but the sustain doesn't go away. It gets a "soft" (not quieter) tone, very warm and round. but it STILL sustains well. I think the moly blend into the nylon is the reason.

Also, weight does not seem to be a factor as far as sustain. Stability is. this is an old guitar thing - we went through years of brass bridges, even granite-slab bodies thining weight=sustain. It's been proven dead wrong by engineers (mechnical ones, not recording engineers) - hence in the "other" guitar world you see "Tusq" saddles on electric guitars without sustain being compromised. If your bar is stable and does not absorb a significant amount of string vibration, your sustain will be there. that's what I was sure of when David first talked about sending me my initial acrylic bar, and when I got it my thoughts were confirmed. hearing the bars on guitars OTHER than Fendrs really cemented the thought into place.

I'd read threads on the subject, and knew that while the material can make a difference, a stable, non-fibrous material is likely going to get close to steel in sound. Wood gets you a banjo tone, to be sure - vibration absorbing and sustain-killing. But these crazy things get you a steel tone with slight variations like with any other bars. and the larger size and light weight make them an absolute joy to play.

Curt - there are two amps back there - the close one is a Fender GDec, the greatest practice tool on the planet IMO. completely programmable MIDI amp with 50 presets (plus 20 "hidden ones"), all tweakable into 50 user slots; you can change styles of backup tracks, speed, song key, guitar effects...it's amazing. It'll also play any MIDI fils of your computer, and has a CD input for "play along" stuff...plus a headphone out. here's a new bigger version about to hit the streets - my son will get this on and I'll grab the new one.

The other amp is a 30-watt, 2x10 Holland Little Jimi. A cross between a Vibrolux Reverb and Vox AC-30. It is fantastic sounding with Fender steels and far louder than one would ever imagine with great headroom (when biased right). It's been my main studio amp for about 7 or 8 years.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 06 August 2006 at 07:29 AM.]

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I handed him my 1 1/4" acrylic bar (the one b0b says can't allow a steel guitar to sound right, that something must be wrong with my amp).

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Albert will play with anything he can get his hands on...including one of the first Zirc bars.

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I believe Albert has THE first zirc bar, serial # 1.

I have #31.

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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

calvin

The absolute first two that were made were for Bill Stafford, and myself. I did not put #s on these.

The first picker to see them was Pee Wee Whitewing when he and the HEART of TEXAS band and their families spent a week with us at the Ranch in NM. Pee Wee wanted one, and that is where we decided to do a run of the Zircs. Pee Wee's Number is 00 if I recall correctly, and with a pair of wings instead of his name.

There is an 007 among other off beat numbers.

Several had nick names like "cheeks" put on the bars.

The Zirc fever spread as they were seen at the shows. They are too expensive to make unless one already has the equipment needed.

Bill Stafford was the person that did the work = machining and polishing. The test for "smooth enough" was to scrub the strings with the bar and have no grey/black appear on the bar from "lapping" the metal of the strings. Your metal bars do this, but because of the color of the bar, you do not see it. White shows it.

Re sustain measurement...With the stop watch, when do you stop, and at what point in the loss of upper harmonics (how determined}.

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Topic: Tone bars - everything you know is wrong.

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"a steel guitar just doesn't look right unless its being played with a shiny steel bar"

..and related things come up so often that it's not "normal" for these things to be used. There's no logical reason, though.

Bobby, here's the exact wording you used:

"Jim Sliff, there's no way that a plexiglass bar will sound like a steel bar. I use a plexiglass bar sometimes for its unique sound. If they really sound the same to you, your amp settings are obscuring your tone."

Through my Vibroverb, Holland, or Pro Reverb...and I do have half a clue how to set amps, having serviced them for 35 year...the acrylic (which many would call plexi), Dunlops and Twister are indistiguishable. There's no "special effect". Forget the volume pedal and use guitar=>cord=>amp, play a note, let it ring....or slide around a bit. Mayb some steel players could tell a minute difference (or maybe there's more difference if you have your amp settings dialed in for icepick treble, as so often heard on steel) , but I've fooled recording engineers and guitarists so far. So unless your audience is made up of 100% steel players, you can probably enjoy the feel of a lighter, bigger bar...and nobody will know.

Well, Calvin will if he's looking.

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Sorry Mike...Alberts #1 is not THE first one made, nor is it the 1st of the production run.

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Ed, I'm probably mistaken, (after all, it was 9 years ago) but I seem to recall that Albert's bar had the number one etched in it.

As far as I remember though, there was no such etching in the hard boiled egg he used.

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Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

quote:

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"Jim Sliff, there's no way that a plexiglass bar will sound like a steel bar. I use a plexiglass bar sometimes for its unique sound. If they really sound the same to you, your amp settings are obscuring your tone."

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I've fooled recording engineers and guitarists so far

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I have no doubt about this, but my own experience is that this doesn't matter. The subtleties of tone and feel that determine our own personal "sound" often cannot be heard by an outside ear, and cannot be picked up in the recording process. This does not mean the differences are not real, only that they are difficult to measure. One should never mistake measurement for reality

As an example, when playing six-string, I can actually feel my strings changing tension, hardness, and other properties depending on which distorition I have engaged. Now the strings are not actually changing, but the feedback mechanism between my ears and fingers definitely is. Psycho-acoustics is a facinating and very complex field.

It has plenty of weight and floats right along on my Williams U-12.

You guys are truly splitting hairs, here.

C'mon - do not fret - just play the damn steel.

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[This message was edited by Albert Svenddal on 06 August 2006 at 06:30 PM.]

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You guys are truly splitting hairs, here.

C'mon - do not fret - just play the damn steel.

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Chip, I'm inclined to agree!

Different bars may produce slightly different sounds to the player, but most others won't notice any big difference. Note that the bars Jim used and has pictured are all inordinately large. Once the mass and diameter of the bar reaches a certain point, it functions like most any other bar. (Try a 1/2" steel bar and a 1/2" plexi bar, and the differences are more obvious.) Some slide guitarists still favor the old glass "Coricidin bottle" as a slide, and even though it's fairly light and hollow, it still offers considerable sustain. Many months ago, I got involved in a discussion here about the sound differences between a 7/8" bar and a 15/16" bar. Some players insisted that the larger bar made a distinct difference in the sound. I remain unconvinced, and I maintained that the audible differences were insignificant unless you have that "1 in 10,000 ear" like Buddy Emmons probably does.

Though I have a few plastic and even wood bars (all smaller than those pictured), when I want a really low-sustain sound like a banjo or koto, I simply use a "Sharpie" marker, or a "Flair" felt-tip pen!

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Some slide guitarists still favor the old glass "Coricidin bottle" as a slide, and even though it's fairly light and hollow, it still offers considerable sustain.

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Here's what the folks at John Pearse say about their Thermocryonic bars:

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A totally new kind of tone bar. Carved from an ingot of highest quality 440 stainless steel, each bar is heat treated to 60 Rockwell hardness before being cryogenically frozen to -300 degrees to remove all construction stresses. Experience unbelieveable sustain!

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And even goes as far to say:

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A friend of ours at the "Grand Old Opry" started using one of our bars on his pedal steel. All the other steel players were trying to figure out what it was that he had changed in his steel to so improve the sound...and he told them! It is the John Pearse® Big Daddy™!

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Is this just hype? It appears that they are promoting the heavier bar, with increased hardness (and I suspect denser) for increased sustain? I have been wanting to try one. Opinions needed.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 06 August 2006 at 07:47 PM.]

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I use a B.J.S. 15/16 bar most of the time. One hour of playing with the wrong bar and the bass player never turned to me and said I was using the wrong bar! The owner never noticed or the 200 people never noticed AND I never noticed! MY POINT--does it really make a difference what bar we use? Is it super hearing steel players that can hear the difference?

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It's a toss up. When I was clunking along, me and Sammy sat around his machine shop and tried to straighten out the world one day. He said "Chipper, let me give you one of MY great steel bars." You do need this bar, size and weight-wise.

This took place about 4-5 years ago, after Sammy read some previous posts on the Forum about this very issue.

He got pissed, and said to me, I'll make a steel bar that no one can touch. He was right.

Ask any Forum members here, like Doug Beaumier, Jim Smith, Joe Casey, Leigh Howell,
as to the prowess of Sammy Gibson.

Sammy is not only a terrific steeler, but is a class one machinist. Sammy is continually hired by Jerry Fessenden to make parts for Fessenden Guitars. The man is real.

Sammy has worked in a subcontracter capacity for many high-tech companies like Pratt & Whitney, Boeing, Colt, and Smith & Wesson over the years - just to name a few.

I love the cat. He knows his stuff.

It is a very good bar, as is the BJS.

I collect bars and have about 50 of them, but the one I actually use is the zirc.

Did anyone ever try carbonitriding a bar blank? Gives a superhard surface.

How's about a piece of Thompson shafting, i.e. case hardened stuff?

There is a process that will impregnate the surface of steel (and other?) for a few milliinches with Teflon. It makes very slickery surface, stays, and does not appear to wear. The La La land police had this done to the mechanisms of their pistolas to make them hair triggered. Uses Chlorine gas.

If I was to try to make a another space age bar (the Zirc being the first), I would try DLC = diamond like carbon as a coating. It is a vacuum process. DLC is used as scratch protection on eye glasses, and was/is used for smoothness, and wear protection on the hard discs in hard disc drives.

Abrasion resistance is right up there, or maybe higher than hardness for me. Hardness is a penetration type measurement. It works differently on different grain sizes/shapes. If I don't drop the bar, penetration should not be an issue...scratch is. The ceramics like Zirc are usually hardness rated in Knoop.

Hardness beats density (think weight) as a criteria, as steel beats lead. Hard surfaces make for greater string noise, as does surface roughness.

Sustain can be artificially created by sliding the bar...to the degree that the bar is not smooth. One of the Nashville greats called me after getting his Zirc bar with this "problem": "The Zirc seems to have less sustain above the 12th fret". He was playing with no amp attached. This experiment was tried...without moving the bar about, compare the sustain of the metal bar and the Zirc. The result was that the smoother Zirc bar did not treat the string(s) with the same amount of violin bow excitation as the metal bar....so some of the "sustain" was caused by sliding the bar against the string.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

The two qualities I've been looking at on the plastics are Rockwell harness and density. The lack of hardness of the plastics takes some of the extreme high-end treble whine or bite out of the sound - this is preferable to some people, not to others. The density is the weight per given volume, which is why you can make a big grippy plastic bar that still only weighs a fast 4 oz. For the purposes of the kinds of music I like to play, the steel guitar has plenty of sustain with a light bar - I just don't need to hold whole notes for four seconds, very few types of music do call for that. Speedy West, Joaquin Murphy, Alvino Rey, Jerry Byrd managed to scrape through with light bars....

The delrin is both denser and softer than the acrylic or the MDS nylon, hence it sustains a bit better per given size but has an even warmer (less treble) sound - very useful for overdriven rock tone. I also suspect that there's less transmission along the bar between strings, so that there's less clash of upper harmonics among different notes when using overdrive - this is just a conjectural, unmeasured suspicion of mine at this point.

I think the reason that Coricidian bottle sounds so warm is that the glass is hard, but it's so light that the meat of the finger under the slide absorbs some of the fastest, higher vibrations immediately - again a somewhat lucky conjunction. As b0bby Lee mentioned, a lot of amps add compression, so "measuring" sustain with a revved-up tube amp, or a Peavey with it's automatic "DDT" compression gets pretty iffy. Also, the human brain naturally "compresses" sounds - you internally mute the louder ones and concentrate on hearing the softer, dying ones - so I think the "stopwatch test" is fraught with room for opinion-fueled error. We hear what we want to? There is still much hard scientific research that could be done in this area, but then - what would we have to argue about?

[This message was edited by David Mason on 07 August 2006 at 09:01 AM.]

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

We were there for a week and we all hung out at the bar at the Best Western, right down from the Hall Of Fame. It was the place to be seen and heard at the time [even got smashed one night with "Alabama"].

But. To the point - The house band had a steeler by the name of Jim Vest. Jim, not surprisingly, was just excellent. But as I kept checking things out, I finally noticed Jim's bar. If you can imagine the old "Stevens" dobro bar as a solid cylinder, instead of the lateral grooves on the topside, then that would be the size of Jim's bar.

I said to myself, "how does he get such a sound and sustain from such a "teeny" bar?"

I never did find out. But he was just even more incredible in my eyes after seeing that bar. I was well aware at this time in my learning curve the difference mass has in your sustain; and even tried a Stevens dobro bar myself. I sure couldn't make it ring and sustain like Jim could.

I had to post this, cause it just knocked me out; and figured, what the hay, why not throw in another monkey wrench.

Just for laughs.

[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 08 August 2006 at 01:47 PM.]

Jim Palenscar could make any of those bars sustain like a steel bar, or at least close enough you culd use one and no one would notice (the Delrin and moly could have passed a blindfold test). One of the other guys there got a good sound, but not sustain. I have no problem with sustain or sound. So a lot may depend on the player.

As far as "mass" - I think it depends on how you're defining "mass". If you are thinking "weight" then it's not relevant, because all these big bars are VERY light. I'm talking less than half the weight of a 7/8 steel bar.

All I can really say is I was initially surprised by the Acrylic - and we ALL were knocked out by the moly, especially. It looked and somehow just "seemed" wrong...but the sound and feel were something else. You could play "slow country ballads" on one for days and no one would be the wiser, except you might be asked how you were getting that warm, fat tone?

Fun stuff to play with.

And FWIW I've used an original Coricidin bottle for slide for years. Scraped the label off myself. And they sound NOTHING like the "imitation" or "reissue" bottles (which are quite harsh IMO), which are just glass slides. The real ones are a different glass, and they look quite different side-by-side.

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However, on my current recording project, there's a piece with a recurring slide on the 12 string from the 3rd to the 5th fret, and the zirc bar made some surface noise from the heavy wondings of the string.

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When you're talking about the "sustain" of a particular bar, you also have to talk about the guitar itself, and the playing style. For example, the old cable Fenders were never particularly noted for their sustain. Compared to a modern guitar (or even an old p/p for that matter), they're pretty low in the sustain department. Also, some players (most notably, guys like Ralph Mooney and Pete Kleinow), don't play a style that demands a lot of sustain. So, when using a Fender PSG, or when playing "Mooney-type" licks, just about anything will work fine for a bar...sustain isn't a key element. There'll be sonic differences in the tone and attack, but you'll still have sufficient sustain with most any bar you might use. Differences you might easily hear playing in a studio or in your own home are often completely obliterated when you're playing out somewhere with a live band.