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Author
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Topic: JI/ET Singers vs Steel Players
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Scott Swartz
Member From: St. Louis, MO
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posted 07 August 2006 11:44 AM
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I normally avoid the tuning discussions here but here is a twist on it.I have been recording a demo song for a local band in my studio, and since the harmony vocals were sounding a little out, decided to tune the harmonies using Melodyne (pitch correction software that is similar to Autotune but works much better). The lead singer sounds very in tune by himself, but analyzing his lines shows a lot of JI, the song is in A and C#s and F#s tended to be a little flat. I am not going to change this track at all, I decided I would only tweak the harmony track to work better The harmony singer sounded sharp a lot, but after analyzing the harmonies the harmony singer was hitting s lot of the thirds right at ET, but it sounded sharp. As I worked through the song it seemed like adjusting the harmony notes to ET for 4ths and 5ths, and tempering 3rds and 6ths to closer to JI was the best overall blend. Very similar to how most steelers tune. I guess it should not be a surprise, but it was interesting to note the similarities. I guess its possible I am hearing it with a steeler's ear, but the lead singer noticed the issue also. I tried the auto mode where the software tweaks all the notes to ET and that sounded terrible, which is a well known issue with pitch correction software.
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Dave Mudgett
Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 07 August 2006 01:16 PM
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Really good points. Did you notice that the most offensive parts were the long-held harmony notes? That's what I notice the most, just as on steel. If the notes fly by, let's say like rapid swing harmony with fairly complex chords, like Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross, I don't think it would be so noticable. But on a stretched-out bluegrass style harmony using simple triads, any slight pitch errors are really noticable, to me anyway. |
Dean Parks
Member From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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posted 07 August 2006 01:26 PM
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Scott-In Autotune (and I assume in Melodyne?) there is an auto mode where you choose the key, and the intonation algorithm (JI for example, and several mean-tuning options). Did you find and try that option? I would like to know if this puts the vocals in the ballpark. -dean- |
Scott Swartz
Member From: St. Louis, MO
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posted 07 August 2006 02:15 PM
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Melodyne has JI presets like AT. I did not try this yet but I suspect it will not work for all notes. It would certainly be closer than the default ET auto mode, but I think it will end up being a different flavor of robotic sounding. The real problem is all the grace notes notes, slurs, and other expressive devices that singers employ. When you see them layed out on a grid, it looks like to me that no matter which tuning system you use JI ET meantone etc having an auto mode will never work. In Melodyne you can audition each note as a sustained aaaah with the bass guitars and harmonies also going aaaah, and some of the in between notes sound very much in tune against the other instruments.[This message was edited by Scott Swartz on 07 August 2006 at 02:16 PM.] |
Mark van Allen
Member From: loganville, Ga. USA
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posted 08 August 2006 11:21 AM
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Although I don't like using Autotune, sometimes it's a session saver, and some clients demand it (!). The settings for speed of the effect, and depth or tracking have an immense effect on the "realism" or un-noticeability of the effect in use. I think Melodyne has the same ability to allow some of the original pitch (or lack thereof!) through before correction, making it sound more natural.
I'm still fascinated by how few of the pre-autotune recordings sound like they needed it. Something in the water? |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 08 August 2006 07:02 PM
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Scott, your experience doesn't seem surprising. JI and ET are so close on 4ths and 5ths that it's not worth making a distinction. The 3rds, 6ths and 7ths are the scale notes that are the most different between JI and ET.It is a little surprising that the harmony singer was singing ET 3rds. That is actually not so easy to do. Horns and singers usually automatically hit the 3rds JI. Was he listening to the lead singer as he laid down the harmony? Could he possibly have been listening to an ET keyboard or guitar playing the same harmony notes? |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 08 August 2006 07:18 PM
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Maybe he was just a bad singer. |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 08 August 2006 08:31 PM
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Anything that's in tune will sound sharper than something that is flat..  How come they couldn't find a "tone center" and sing their E's at 442?
You know, not quite "Straight Up-Just Intonation"...... <:O) EJL |
Scott Swartz
Member From: St. Louis, MO
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posted 11 August 2006 09:47 AM
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One thing I forgot to add is that Melodyne (and actually Autotune) have free demo versions you can download if you want to load up some tracks in your DAW and see for yourself. |
David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 11 August 2006 10:23 AM
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I would suspect that the only way a singer would sing ET was if they had been strongly (self?) trained with a keyboard to hit those pitches, it doesn't seem like that would occur to anyone else. It's funny how playing steel ruins your ability to just enjoy music, huh? |
Rick Schmidt
Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA
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posted 11 August 2006 12:15 PM
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Yeah I gave up music completely to start playing steel in a C&W band.  |
Dave Mudgett
Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 11 August 2006 12:20 PM
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I think I always noticed sustained vocal harmony parts when they were off. But I do agree, I think the tuning threads on this forum caused me to listen much more carefully, and now I drive myself crazy when playing 6-string guitar, which really has tuning limitations. Oh, well. |
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