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Author
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Topic: Bolt-on vs Cut-tail
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Doug Jones
Member From: Canby, Oregon USA
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posted 16 August 2006 10:52 PM
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I'm sure this topic is old hat, or should I say Derby?, but I'm curious about a few things. Is there much of a difference tonally between the two and is there really a stay in tune issue with the bolt-ons? |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 16 August 2006 11:06 PM
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To my ear there is a slight difference to the tone but they both sound better than most every other steel. There is no tuning problems with the bolt on in my experience. My feeling is that they changed the design of the Emmons because they cound save a couple manufacturing steps and then called it an improvement.------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website  |
Curt Langston
Member From: ***In the shadows of Tulsa at Bixby, USA***
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posted 17 August 2006 05:24 AM
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quote:
My feeling is that they changed the design of the Emmons because they cound save a couple manufacturing steps and then called it an improvement.
Good one, Bob!
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Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 17 August 2006 06:35 AM
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When I worked for Little Roy Wiggins music store, that was also the Nashville dealer for Emmons in the early 70's, I was told that that separating the neck from the changer was for potential tuning issues. With the neck "separate" it could expand/contract with the temperature and not affect other parts of the guitar. |
Buck Reid
Member From: Nashville,TN
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posted 17 August 2006 08:58 AM
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The bolt-on design did present tuning issues because the changer pillars rested on top of the neck. Therefore if the neck moved due to contraction or expansion...so did the changer. The cut-tail was a better option as was wooden necks.  |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 17 August 2006 09:39 AM
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The whole idea behind the wraparound was separation of the changer and peghead from the necks.I have a Bigsby guitar in which the peghead, neck, and changer mechanism are all one connected piece of aluminum, and yes, there are thermoexpansion/contraction* problems out the wazoo. *that means the sucker goes out of tune all to hell. The cut-tail is really only a wraparound with the back plate separated and bolted to the changer pillars, but for some reason, doesn't sound like the wraps. However, I used to own Bob Hoffnar's bolt-on, as well as a half-dozen others, and I didn't really notice all that bad a detuning problem with any of them. Of course, the pegheads were separate from the necks, unlike the Bigsby. ------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association |
Cliff Kane
Member From: Long Beach, CA
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posted 17 August 2006 10:18 AM
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Herb: "The whole idea behind the wraparound was separation of the changer and peghead from the necks."This is what seems odd to me:
If Emmons already knew about tuning problems associated with the changer mounted directly to the neck-- and that was one of the reasons for the wrap around design--why would they change the design to one which would introduce problems that they were already of aware of (as with the bolt-on design)?
I can understand the change from the bolt-on to the cut-tail to remove the tuning problems associated with the bolt-on design, but it doesn't make sense that they would design the bolt-on when they already knew that there were inherent problems with that type of design. I would be interested to hear from bolt-on players who have actually experienced the tuning problems mentioned. It seems that people know about these problems, but I recall that most bolt-on players say that they really don't have exaggerated tuuning problems with their bolt-ons.
[This message was edited by Cliff Kane on 17 August 2006 at 10:21 AM.] |
Rick Johnson
Member From: Wheelwright, Ky USA
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posted 17 August 2006 12:26 PM
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I have a lacquer Danish Brown '75 D-10 Bolt-on with wood necks. The only time I have any
tuning issues is with extreme temperature
changes like from the vehicle to the studio.
I have to let it aclimate for a while.
After that, I seldom ever need to use
a wrench on it too, as long as I don't
change string guages.
Other than that, I have no tuning issues.Rick
www.rickjohnsoncabs.com |
Erv Niehaus
Member From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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posted 17 August 2006 02:17 PM
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The bolt on changer with wood necks and the bolt on changer with metal necks are two different animals.With wood necks, the changer mounts are separate from the neck. With metal necks, the changer mounts are part of the neck. All wood neck Emmons have bolt on changers, as far as I know. |
Garry Vanderlinde
Member From: Garden Grove, California, USA
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posted 17 August 2006 02:37 PM
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I have a '66 bolt on and it is VERY touchy to temperature changes. In and out of AC is a definite problem. It makes you plan more and show up to the gig a little earlier than maybe the other guys. Once it has acclimated and the temp has leveled out it does not go out of tune. This is true with most quality instruments don't you think? A great example was at an outdoor party I played at last month. It was very hot in July. For a time I was in the direct sunlight. WOW, it was all I could do to stay in tune from solo to solo, constantly tuning. So I got an umbrella to shade it and the tuning problem disappeared. But for a while there I was in hell. I've heard that with some extra springs on the P/P rods that temp changes become less of a problem. The extra springs absorb the expansion and contraction of the temp changes, but I don't really know. I would like to try it, but man, what a job that would be!
[This message was edited by Garry Vanderlinde on 17 August 2006 at 04:44 PM.] |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 17 August 2006 06:13 PM
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All guitars that I ever owned had tuning issues with temperature change. I have had a Franklin, bolt on Emmons and cut tail Emmons in the same studio with the exact same conditions and they all worked fine. I have toured with my bolt on and run it from a freezing airline cargo hold straight onto hot stage lights and it was weird for a bit like any steel but settled in fine. I keep on hearing about the tuning issue with bolt ons but have never experienced any evidence of it.
I am interested in guys like Buck Reid's knowlege of the issue because they have been right in the middle of everything and certainly have a better insight into the issue than I do.------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website |
Nick Reed
Member From: Springfield, TN
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posted 17 August 2006 07:19 PM
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I own two '66 Emmons bolt-on P/P's. The only time I've noticed abnormal tuning problems is when playing outdoors on a real hot day. Most of my gigs are inside so the problems with these guitars have been very minimal. And with the tone they produce (oooohyeah), it's almost worth putting up with - at least for me anyway. Nick  [This message was edited by Nick Reed on 18 October 2006 at 10:45 PM.] |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 17 August 2006 07:34 PM
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quote:
My feeling is that they changed the design of the Emmons because they cound save a couple manufacturing steps and then called it an improvement.
Now think about it.They junked the Bolt On. Except for wood necks and went back to a design that was like the original. And yes I own both.The Bolt on is a little sweeter but stays home. |
Buck Reid
Member From: Nashville,TN
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posted 18 August 2006 10:45 AM
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Hi Bob,don't give me too much credit,there are many guys that know more about this than I. I only know that I owned a 67' bolt-on that was a great sounding guitar but climate changes did present tuning problems for me. Touring conditions are sometimes tough and any guitar is going to react but the bolt-on model seemed excessive. Changing the design and separating the necks from the changer just makes sense. |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 18 August 2006 11:57 AM
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Thanks Buck for saying what I was trying to say.You explain things almost as well as you play..Nah. But a good post. |
Fred Bova
Member From: Montrose, California, USA
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posted 13 October 2006 11:00 PM
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I remember seeing a player using a hair dryer to warm up his neck, keyhead, and changer before tuning for a show. |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 14 October 2006 11:56 AM
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quote:
I've heard that with some extra springs on the P/P rods that temp changes become less of a problem. The extra springs absorb the expansion and contraction of the temp changes, but I don't really know. I would like to try it, but man, what a job that would be!
That is correct, and it's the best mod you can make to an Emmons' undercarriage. |
Jack Kondora
Member From: Harrison, Arkansas, USA
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posted 14 October 2006 09:23 PM
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I've played Emmons since 1966 and I've never had a problem with tuning, indoors or out!
I have always used stainless strings(GHS)
and I let the guitar reach ambient temp before checking my tuning. Once tuned, I never touch my guitar to keep it in tune! I currently play a "71" p/p D10, 9 amd 5 thatI got from Bobbe Seymour(black fatback, wood necks). It STAYS in tune all night!!!
Jack Kondora, Harrison, Arkansas |
PAUL WARNIK
Member From: OAK LAWN,IL,USA
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posted 17 October 2006 02:07 AM
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I have no problems with keeping my two '66 bolt-ons in tune when playing indoor gigs-I usually arrive early and let it settle in to the room temp-Playing outdoor gigs is another matter-Playing in direct sunlight or in cooler temps will cause some difficulty in keeping in tune-If I know the gig is outdoors I rather take my woodneck Emmons which is seemingly more stable when exposed to the climate changes |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 17 October 2006 05:57 AM
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In defense of Bigsby, 70 percent of these guitars were wood neck instruments, zero tuning problems.
Several of these great inovative guitars have been converted to wood neck, or wood neck inserts since new.
I am playing one now on a large percentage of my Nashville jobs and find no problems with it in any way. Light,(double neck)incredible tone, perfect tuning, beautiful and just plain fun to play!
Now to the Emmons neck designs, it hardly makes any difference, Buck Reed is slighty correct, as are some other posters, however, again, set up correctly, the "Bolt on" will stay in perfect tune. By this I mean, tighten the neck screws at the changer VERY tight, then loosten the screws along the neck underneath, loose enough that the neck can expand and contract but tight enough to keep the screws from falling out. The "Blue Locktite" will permit this.
The "Bolt on" can be as wonderful a total performer as the other models on Emmons guitar if set up correctly. Sound? Look out! Incredible, as are all P-P models. Bobbe |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 17 October 2006 08:22 AM
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quote:
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I've heard that with some extra springs on the P/P rods that temp changes become less of a problem. The extra springs absorb the expansion and contraction of the temp changes, but I don't really know. I would like to try it, but man, what a job that would be!I suppose any of us can learn and I hate to show my ignorance but I would love to have this thing about adding springs explained to me. What is that about?
Jerry |
chris ivey
Member From: sacramento, ca. usa
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posted 17 October 2006 10:59 AM
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bobbe...creative screw tensioning...cracks me up (rocket science)...but i read something once that mr. emmons said he also had a theory about screw tightness for tone enhancement...i have two wood neck bolt-ons and an old zum..i've found that the less unnecessary tuning, the better! |
PAUL WARNIK
Member From: OAK LAWN,IL,USA
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posted 18 October 2006 01:50 AM
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Bobbe S-I know your defense of Bigsby to be honorable-I know you have owned many of them and had the foresight to accumulate them before anyone else cared about how valuable they would become-I would not have owned several of the eight Bigsbys that I have had if it were not for you-I still have two of them that you owned-But I disagree about your comment that 70% of Bigsby (steels) were wooden necked-Checking back on the list posted here awhile back that listed 60 or so known Bigsby steels-I believe only about a dozen or so of them to be wooden necked-that is only about 20%-and that includes the wooden neck lap steels and several console models that had metal necks converted to wooden ones |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 18 October 2006 02:47 PM
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Paul, Paul Paul,You may well be correct Paul, I have had 22 Bigsbys, about half were wood, but I still see that you could be correct. I have never really had any problems tuning any Bigsby and keeping it in tune, but then again, I'm not very critical, Ha!
Your buddy,
Bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 18 October 2006 at 02:52 PM.] |
PAUL WARNIK
Member From: OAK LAWN,IL,USA
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posted 18 October 2006 09:20 PM
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Bobbe-22 and counting-thats alot of Bigsby's
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BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 19 October 2006 04:03 PM
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A lot, but not enough!
Bobbe
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Buck Reid
Member From: Nashville,TN
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posted 20 October 2006 12:21 AM
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Bobbe - thanks for the vote of confidence! While Buck REED might have been "slightly correct" , Buck REID was and is absolutely correct! The bolt on design from the factory was flawed and only after modification could you "make it stay in tune perfectly" - which is another argument in itself. I could modify my lawn mower to retrieve the mail, come on - let's be real. There's a reason they changed the design! |
John Davis
Member From: Cambridge, U.K.
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posted 20 October 2006 12:33 AM
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Only gigged my 68 bolt on "Frank" about seven different venues since I bought it back from US end of September.....no tuning problems whatever and it sings like a bird I love that Emmons |
Garry Vanderlinde
Member From: Garden Grove, California, USA
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posted 20 October 2006 07:31 AM
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Jerry
I got the springs/temp concept from John Lacey’s website
. http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide_notes.html In the section titled; Some Additional Notes on Spacers and Shock Springs he says.... "On the E9 neck the string gauges are much thinner than on the C6 neck. So the pedals will have to travel farther to reach the raise or lower note position. On the strings with the farthest distance to pull (typically the C pedal raise of the 4th string to F# and the B pedal 3rd string to A) no springs or just the slightest bit of spring are used. Some players prefer to have a slight bit of spring on these pulls for two reasons.
The spring will relieve the stress on the hook and pull finger and it will compensate for temperature changes. With the no spring setup, on cold days, the rod shortens and adds the stress mentioned, and on hotter days, the rod lengthens, which can cause the finger to pull slightly short of the stop. The slight compression compensates both problems. We are only talking a millimeter or so of travel beyond the stop, which some players feel is worth the benefits" What I need is some type of spring that could be attached without having to disassemble the undercarriage.
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Chris Lucker
Member From: Los Angeles, California USA
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posted 20 October 2006 11:05 AM
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With a cast neck Bolt-on you cannot remove the neck without loosening or removing the changer, which is a pain when the underneath mechanics are all under tension and adjusted nicely. With a Cut Tail, or a Wraparound, you may remove the neck and leave the changer in place.
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P Gleespen
Member From: Lakewood, OH USA (I miss Boston!)
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posted 20 October 2006 11:17 AM
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Sorry for the ignorance, but which model is "the holy grail" emmons, is it the bolt-on or the cut-tail...or something else, maybe?I guess maybe another way of putting it is: what kind is "The Blade"? |
John Steele
Member From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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posted 21 October 2006 01:41 PM
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P,
I'm not the most qualified to answer this, but since nobody else did;
Although the bolt-ons are coveted for their tone, and may indeed be the "holy grail" you refer to, I understand Buddy's "Blade" is a '68 cuttail.
-John |
chris ivey
Member From: sacramento, ca. usa
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posted 21 October 2006 02:06 PM
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chris....just out of curiosity, why would you want to take the neck off anyway unless you were disassembling the whole thing to refinish or sumpin, at which point you would also, i assume, take the changer off?? |
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