Yes, if I do break a string it is usually a .11 G# string. I also do have tuning issues with my 6th string. I think that is because it is a .22p. However because I also lower a whole tone on that string I need the plain on it. My Sho~Bud doesn't have enough to lower a wound string a whole tone on the G#.

This is a pretty common problem in the steel guitar community.

I too prefer a wound sixth, but since I'm dropping the sixth a whole tone I have to use a plain.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Big Red
Durham, NH

Most changers will raise the string a full tone, at least, so there is spare capacity in the raise finger if you only want a half-tone raise.

The following sketches illustrate my mod easier than I can explain it:

Thanks for the illustration which points to ingenious forethought on your part. Thanks to each of the forum members who have written interesting input, which for the most part, hints of 3rd and 6th string dilemmas. For what its worth, I've considered how friction and tensile strength share in the mixed bag of tuning/breaking events, as they can become overwhelming to say the least. Stressing the tensile strength of the 3rd string numerous times by pounding the "B" pedal causes a gradual breakdown of the G# to "A" raise. After a multiple series of raises, the string commences to enter the whiny hard to tune stage and in its subdued state, becomes faulty, and snaps. The wound 6th "B" string, with its thin bronze or nickel wrapping, is subject to constant bar wear, and the tensile strength changes gradually. This change would make necessary a readjustment to "compromise" the slight change of pitch. A more complex problem ensues, due to the delicate responses of the 6th string, when for some reason all moving parts do not return to the absolute original positioning. Each string is like a thermometer, that is, absorbing cold or warm conditions, and moving up and down with the changes. I might add that each reacts differently to extremes of hot and cold temperatures.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 06 September 2006 at 06:48 PM.]

However, this mod is for an all-pull changer mechanism that hasn't physically got enough movement to drop a wound string a full tone.

If the changer has got enough movement, then another mod of mine is the simpler option.

I used this idea on my Carter for many years.

Basically, if you want to drop a full tone, there is excessive spring stretch, maybe 50% of the original spring length.

This translates into excessive pressure required at the knee lever.

If a longer spring is used, it might only be stretched 10% of its original length, thus less pressure at the lever.

Edited to add:
In the first sketch below, note that the bell crank is only used to retain my mod, the bell crank does not rotate.

[This message was edited by richard burton on 06 September 2006 at 10:18 PM.]

I've wished that I could have viewed your inventiveness at close range. The combination of introducing new ideas, to be carried out by a capable machinist, is the formula for better steel guitar performances. Struggling to maintain a melody line, commonly experienced with maladjustive steel guitars, can be "supplanted", when a little motivation to eradicate the nuisance is employed. I have found a means of counteracting the 6th string's atypical disassembly from E9th tuning chordal structuring. It's called the GOLO.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 07 September 2006 at 07:56 AM.]

"Golo" ? Yes, the Golo is a subtle technique of positioning the 6th string in a forced reciprocating alignment, which reduces the annoyance of detuning to virtually nil. I can easily lower the 6th G# string 3 half tones with little effort. Amazing, but true!

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 07 September 2006 at 09:33 AM.]

I don't lower my 6th string to F#. The travel of the lever would be extreme, I think.

I would switch to a plain 6th string if the tone was pleasing to my ears. It is not. The .020 or .022 plain strings just don't sound right to me. I guess I always expect a certain sound when I pick that string, and if it's not there it disturbs me. I know that the plain 6th works well for most players - it just doesn't work for me. Old habits sometimes aren't worth breaking.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Reciprocating alignment denotes measures taken to harness the intonation discrepancies I've experienced with the G# 6th string. Many steel guitar finishes are beautiful, but when it comes to the tuning aspects, many fall short of expectations. I use a piano tuning fork to check vibrations. It is more accurate than electronic tuners. Try this little test on any steel guitar, by pressing the "A" pedal and E-F knee lever. Pick the 6th string first before the changes. Tune the 6th string at 440 for the test. Please let me know if the G# 6th string goes flat. If you see a drop, join the conundrum of the E9th tuning albatross. I've managed to find a method of circumventing this problem, by resorting to quasi-radical changes unrelated to standarized designs.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 09 September 2006 at 01:45 AM.]

By the way, without knowing it, you may have solved a dilemma in choosing between a mica MSA and a maple one. I remembered that I used a tuning fork to select wood for speaker baffles.
Resonance counts.

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 08 September 2006 at 02:06 PM.]

Bruce`s design are maybe the best changer you can get.
Even the older Zum changer are great an allow just about anything you will need.

I had erred by typing the 6th G# string a B# in one part of my last message to Charlie. I noticed the error this morning, and made the correction. Your last input is excellent, and well stated. I am drawn to your sincere regard for the membership on this forum. You've given readers of the forum the best opportunity to introduce their views, and insights. I know of no other medium that equals the
good that is realized on this forum.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 09 September 2006 at 02:31 AM.]

I recall when Buzz Evans praised the Mullen at a steel guitar show. His expertise as a guitarist, and steel guitarist, is acclaimed to be some of the best in America. I appreciate your message, and I will take into account your 6th string experience. You may have noticed, that others have indicated that a problem does exist in lowering the 6th a full tone.

Edited for correction of Buzz's steel preference.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 09 September 2006 at 08:10 AM.]

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Keenness of perceptibility must be taken into account whenever a statement made is contrary to popular consensus. The 6th string detuning enigma may very well require steps taken beyond string selections. Different levels of players do not share the same levels of insight. Becoming more aware of an instrument's noncompliances, requires "becoming" properly introduced at inopportune moments. Slippages, breakages, detunings, electrical failures, temperature changes at poorly managed air-conditioned bookings, sun, winds, and rains; all are part of the steel guitar experiences. Extended practice sessions should invariably lead a player to zero in on the ever so slight detuning of the 6th G# string.

Edited for correction of plurality error.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 11 September 2006 at 02:35 AM.]

Why is it that some things escape notice on one day, only to be focused upon the following days? The 6th G# string detuning, however slight, would be an example of an overlooked "entity". You suggested advancing the bar "1/6 of a tone" to compensate for the harmonic dissonance of the erratic detuning found by pressing A + E-F changes. The optative maneuvering of bar placement, may very well fall second best to compensatory mechanical additions. The simplistic nudge to bring the 6th into harmonic pitch, may outweigh any method that could create complexities never to be resolved. The detuning enigma is subject to further study, as it applies to all stringed instruments, by greater or lesser degrees.

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1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200,Fender Twin, Hilton pedal, Jag Wire Strings

quote:

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You suggested advancing the bar "1/6 of a tone" to compensate for the harmonic dissonance of the erratic detuning found by pressing A + E-F changes. The optative maneuvering of bar placement, may very well fall second best to compensatory mechanical additions. The simplistic nudge to bring the 6th into harmonic pitch, may outweigh any method that could create complexities never to be resolved.

---

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Of course, I have been aware of the semitone terminology for years. It can be referred to as: 1/2 tone, or 1/2 step as well. To recite my awareness, and escape embarrassment for the misquote, I'll refer to the 4th string raise of the E9th tuning. Found at the "C" pedal location, (I also have been using the change on the RKL for more years than is believable.) Time passes so quickly, and memory is strained at times when concentration goes astray, by dwelling intently on single issues. Pointing out my inadvertent typo error, is another example of the good you are doing, by exacting your leadership in scrutiny. In an attempt to save face on my part, I would point out one of the full tone uses (E-F# C pedal) while playing "Apple Jack", Tom Brumley's exciting instrumental. To play it properly, requires some fancy "C" pedal work. One part of the instrumental necessitates "walking down" four 1/2 steps, or 1/2 tones. Just for example, use F# as the beginning note of the four 1/2 tone changes. Then it can be recited as F#-F-E-Eb. As anyone might imagine, standing corrected is not the end of the world. It helps to keep me a little more on my toes, as the saying goes. Looking back on past postings, would remove any doubt that my awareness of the potential effects of 1/2 or full tones are in good hands here at my home. BTW, my steel features an array of differentiated additional features. Contoured maple arm rest, "Lucky 7", "Golo", 5th & 6th short pedals, fretless fretboard, HUF, padded knee levers, and more. Yesterday, I watched a tape of Frank Caruso's East Coast (Boston area) Show made in 1992. It is topped off by some excellent steel guitar performances, and vocalizing in Texas. What a treat! It perked up my inspiration to spend more time practicing.

What if the A pedal and F lever were lowers?
Would #6 detune still?

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Thanks for engendering your steadfast thoughts on proper usages of string types, and gauges. I have purposely focused on the 3rd and 6th strings, for reasons that point to a lack of elemental consistencies. The Nashville sound comes highly priced, considering the evasive chromatics involved in the E9th tuning. Just for the sake of disputatious endeavoring, and to make a point, the tuning could be called the "stumbling block" tuning. There are quite simply, too many disorganized tones, that can easily disrupt the train of musical thoughts. There is no room for performance errors, as the E9th tuning is unforgiving, and announces with a blaring outcry, its dissent for incorrect melody lines. The E9th was formulated over time, by the masters of the instrument, and articles have been reported in numerous postings, supporting their concepts. The differences in knee levers arrangements, combined with pedal nonconformances, ideally reflects a lack of cohesion in accepted methodology. This generalization applies to string gauge selections, as well as methods of coping with minimal detunings. A significant realization comes to mind, whenever the tuners differ slightly in rotations required to bring a given string to the desired pitch. The plain 6th string is outstanding, due to the sudden change of pitch, requiring the least amount of rotations. I suspect that many turn to the .022 W. to rid their instrument of the subtle problem, and by doing so, surrender a brighter tone.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 13 September 2006 at 05:00 AM.]

I should opine at this time that "close" counts while playing the game of horseshoes, not steel guitars. The same rule applies to tuning and detuning. It requires "horse sense", as you have hinted, in making heads or "tails" of nuisances, occurring as animate or inanimate sources. Thanks for your input on this subject matter.