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Browse my Photo Album and be sure to sign my Guest Book.

steroids, the Fulawka.

[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 15 September 2006 at 01:48 PM.]

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D10 Mahogany Laquer Derby,SD10 Black Laquer Derby,ShoBud LDG, Peavy Session 2000,NV112, Transtubefex

However, when you go to pedal steels there is another thing to consider. It being string breakage. I believe that I read somewhere that when Buddy Emmons and Shot Jackson split company and work began on the Emmons guitar there was some experimentation done on string length. It was determined that 24 1/4" was the maximum string length that would still give you good tone and minimize string breakage.

You need to remember that with a keyed guitar, when you are stretching a sting you are also stretching that portion of the string beyond the roller nut.

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However, when you go to pedal steels there is another thing to consider. It being string breakage. I believe that I read somewhere that when Buddy Emmons and Shot Jackson split company and work began on the Emmons guitar there was some experimentation done on string length. It was determined that 24 1/4" was the maximum string length that would still give you good tone and minimize string breakage.

You need to remember that with a keyed guitar, when you are stretching a sting you are also stretching that portion of the string beyond the roller nut.

Longer scale lengths are successful on keyless guitars because you are eliminating the extra string beyond the nut.

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Erv, you're my kind of thinker. I agree totally.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 21 September 2006 at 09:09 AM.]

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Is sustain better on short, or long scale? Or is it just opinion?

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When considering tone and sustain, you have to consider not only the scale length, but also the string gauge and tension. If the string gauge remains the same, and the pitch remains the same, then a longer scale requires more tension. Higher tension provides louder tone, richer overtones, and longer sustain up until just before the break point.

But tension is limited by the breakage problem. If tension is already optimal for the pitch, then you can use a longer scale at the same tension and pitch by using a lighter gauge string. For a given pitch and tension, a thinner longer string gives richer ovetones and longer sustain than a shorter thicker string. You can demonstrate this easily. Put your bar at some fret, say the 3rd fret, and play a note. Then put your bar on the next lower string and move it up to the appropriate fret to give the same note. The thicker string has a duller tone with less sustain. This is why 7' concert grand pianos have better tone and sustain than 5' baby grands.

So, for a given pitch, a longer scale can improve tone and sustain either by raising the tension while maintaining the same gauge, or by using a smaller gauge while maintaining the same tension, or by a combination of the two (higher tension and smaller gauge).

Erv brought up a related issue about keyless heads. When the changer pulls a string for a raise, it stretches. The extra string between the nut and key (call it the overhang) also must be stretched. That extra stretch requires more rotation of the changer finger, and results in increased breakage at the changer. The short overhang of a keyless requires less stretching, less changer rotation, and results in less breakage. Because of this less breakage, keyless guitars can use a longer neck with higher tension, theoretically resulting in louder tone and longer sustain. But some people claim there is less sustain with some keyless guitars; so there may be other factors at work.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

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Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; NV 112; Fender Twin Custom 15 ('65 reissue); Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com

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E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Carter SD-10/Webb amp/Profex II+Lexicon MPX-110 OR Line 6 Pod XT

I have no idea about whether or not a geared guitar can support a 25" scale. Many years ago, I worked for Bethlehem Steel and designed motor drive control systems for wire drawing machines. I learned something about high carbon steel wire and its properties. There is a absolute limit to constant tension applied to a specific gauge wire strand. In the case of music wire, this limit applies whether or not the wire (string) has a spiral wrap. There is a website (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7049/strmpl.htm) that talks about this. I know that one of the string companies has a website that shows string tension for various gauges tuned to various notes. I saw music wire drawn to as small as 0.001" and we made a stainless steel wire that is silver plated and is used to connect pacemakers to lazy hearts. Such a wire causes problems when it breaks.

[This message was edited by Robert Leaman on 28 September 2006 at 03:01 PM.]

Here is link for an interesting chart: http://www.daddario.com/Resources/JDCDAD/images/tension_chart.pdf

[This message was edited by Robert Leaman on 28 September 2006 at 04:23 PM.]

My Bigsby has a 25" scale, but I tune it to D9 tuning. And I use regular E9 string guages. It works fine thataway, and without string rollers at the nut.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

BTW, this is not meant to be a key vs. keyless issue.
My questions pertain to scale length, string breakage, and string overhang.

Also, my 25" keyless Pedalmaster does not break strings any more than my 24" inch scale Carter. Could the reason my Carter has a 24" scale length be to reduce string breakage, by reducing overall string length? Does the 1/4" shorter overall string length,(from bridge to tuning device) have an effect an string breakage? (as opposed to the overall length on a 24 1/4 scale guitar) Could 1/4" make a difference?
Thanks again to all who have input.

Speaking of my Pedalmaster, here she is now!

Click on a pic!

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 29 September 2006 at 03:14 PM.]

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A 25 inch keyless has less string length measured anchor to anchor than a 25 inch keyed guitar so the string on the keyed guitar would have to be pulled further to get up to pitch - thus exceeding the tensile strength of the string.

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Interesting.... So, does less overall string length from anchor to anchor=less stretching needed, and therefore less tension on the G# string when pulled up to an A? Resulting in less string breakage? (Whether it be keyed or keyless)

Could this be the reason that you don't see any keyed 25" scale guitars?

Thanks for the input Michael. This is good.

Anyone else?

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 29 September 2006 at 03:06 PM.]

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Since the tension is actually greater on the keyless guitars with 25" scale than on the keyed 24 1/4" scale, why does the 25" keyless not have more breakage?

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I question whether the 25" scale has more tension. From the input on this thread, I am beginning to think that a keyed 24 1/4" scale has MORE tension, since it has a longer overall distance,(changer to tuning device) and is strecthed more, to pull from G# to A.
I know that a 24 1/4 keyed guitar feels tighter when I press my palm down on the strings, than it does on my 25" keyless.

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If both scales are 25", then the same tension will be required to pull to A. The length of overhang is irrelevant to tension.

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The length of overhang is irrelevant to tension.

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Imagine this:
We have a guitar with a scale of 24 1/4", but the tuning keys are 12" away from the nut. Could we use the same gauges of strings, and the same E9th tuning? If not, then Why not? Could we even tune the guitar to E9th? Or, would that require too much tension?

Just friendly questions here. I don't want to start a fight or anything.

What do you make of Michael Johnstone's statements?

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 29 September 2006 at 05:08 PM.]

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A 25 inch keyless has less string length measured anchor to anchor than a 25 inch keyed guitar so the string on the keyed guitar would have to be pulled further to get up to pitch - thus exceeding the tensile strength of the string.

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Yes the string has to stretch further, but that does not increase the tension.

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It is the tension over the scale that determines pitch. If the pitch, gauge, and scale length are the same, the tension is the same regardless of the length of overhang.

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It is the tension over the scale that determines pitch.

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Yes, but how much force is need to acheive that tension? The overhang part must be stretched as well.

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But stretch is not tension

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So, if you had a guitar with an overhang of 12", it would require no more tension to tune to E9th than a guitar with a 1" overhang? Assuming both guitars have a 24 1/4" scale.

How could that be? It just does not seem logical. That 12" length of overhang must be included in the tension, since we have already determined that the overhang part and the scale part of the string have equal tension.

All the tension charts show about a 1 pound increase in tension per inch of scale length.

I know that scale length and overall length are not the same. But you still have to stretch that overhang portion to get the scale part up to pitch!

And a keyed 24 1/4 scale keyed guitar has about 28+ inches of string to stretch, to get the scale portion up to pitch.

And what about Buddy Emmon's statement about not being able to construct a 25" scale keyed guitar? Why was he and Shot not able to do it?
Buddy said:

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In reference to your earlier post, my only experience with the 25” scale other than the Sierra was when Shot Jackson and I were building Sho~Buds. It was during the time the high G# was added to the tuning that we encountered the string breakage problem and had to reduce the scale 24 ½ inches.
To be different than Sho~Bud and possibly reduce string breakage even more, I had fifty 24 ¼” Emmons atom fret boards made in Nashville and gave them to Ron to use on the first guitars. By that time, the Sho~Bud fret board had proven that the longer scale didn’t work so there was no need to experiment with the Emmons guitar. Ron had built a Sho~Bud clone prior to my meeting him and may have been referring to that guitar, but the Emmons guitar started at 24 ¼” and stayed there.

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By that time, the Sho~Bud fret board had proven that the longer scale didn’t work so there was no need to experiment with the Emmons guitar.

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Why did he have to shorten the scale to reduce string breakage? A keyless guitar does fine with a 25" scale. Why won't a keyed guitar work with a 25" scale?

I think it has to due with tension on the overhang!

Seems to me Buddy was saying that a keyed 25" guitar kept breaking the G#'s.

Why is Ed's Beast with a 29+" scale unable to be tuned to standard E9th, with the same gauges that we use on 24 1/4 scales?
Could it be that since Ed's beast is virtually ALL "overall" string length (changer to tuning device), and an .011 gauge string will only stretch so far up to tension, before it breaks?
In fact, Ed's Beast virtually has no nut. It is virtually all "overall" length!

I appreciate the input. No need to get frustrated. Just educate me.

I'm listening!

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 30 September 2006 at 10:24 AM.]

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Just because you have to stretch the string more to go from G# to A does not mean the tension is greater.

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So, you're saying more stretch does not take more tension?

David, you say

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It doesn't matter how long the string is, or how much it has to stretch, 10 lbs. of force on a 25" scale string with 1/4" of overhang is equal to 10 lbs. of force on a 25" scale string with 6" of overhang, or 6' of overhang.

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In that case, we should be able to have 30" scale keyed guitars tuned to standard E9th with the same gauges of strings, as a 24 1/4" scale guitar!.............But we don't!

Why?

(1) Also, why did Buddy and Shot come to the conclusion that a keyed 25" scale was too long?

(2) If your statement is true, then why won't Ed's Beast pull an .011 gauge G# up to A, with out breaking?

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 30 September 2006 at 03:21 PM.]

Curt, here's the thread where we went through all this back in July: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013035.html

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Eventually you agreed with everyone else that total string length has nothing to do with tension, only scale length affects tension. Why are you bringing this up again?

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David, you say

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It doesn't matter how long the string is, or how much it has to stretch, 10 lbs. of force on a 25" scale string with 1/4" of overhang is equal to 10 lbs. of force on a 25" scale string with 6" of overhang, or 6' of overhang.
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In that case, we should be able to have 30" scale keyed guitars tuned to standard E9th with the same gauges of strings, as a 24 1/4" scale guitar!.............But we don't!

This question

Why can't we have a keyed 30" scale guitar?

Can you answer it?

I would like to know...................

And how about these two.

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(1) Also, why did Buddy and Shot come to the conclusion that a keyed 25" scale was too long?

(2) If your statement is true, then why won't Ed's Beast pull an .011 gauge G# up to A, with out breaking?

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Help me out here. I really want to know. This is not to pick a fight, I just need these questions answered.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 30 September 2006 at 03:33 PM.]

Why are the two of you raising this dead horse again?

Break it down a little more........

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Why can't we have a keyed 30" scale guitar?

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Just humor me......

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 30 September 2006 at 04:32 PM.]