But back to the jist of this story, you can't make one brand of steel sound like another by just putting the others pickup on it.

(ie.,my NSA sounds just like an Emmonz since I put that Emmonz pickup on it-----)

(Now I need a new pickup to make my Mullenz sound like a NSA)

Hey b0b do you really think your Zum pickup makes you steel sound just like DoBro? Whew,,,,,,,,,, It's different I agree in my opinion, but not like a DoBro, yea, I like it and what it does, but a DoBro? Naw-------> Ask a good DoBro player if it sounds like one. Ask Herb Peterson,,,,,
Your buddy,
Bobbe

Bobbe

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 27 October 2006 at 01:17 PM.]

A bunch of great guitarists were having a guitar pull. I forget what kind of guitar, but the point is that it didn't matter. When Clapton played, it sounded like a strat. When Roy played, it sounded like a tele. When Jimmie Page played, it sounded like a Paul. And so on.

What's the difference between a violin and a fiddle?
The way you play it...

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 27 October 2006 at 01:37 PM.]

quote:

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Does putting a Tele pickup on a Les Paul have any chance of coming out sounding like a Tele? No chance.

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I don't think that it makes either guitar sound "just like" anything. I also have a Line6 Variax which emulates a wide variety of 6 string guitars. It comes close, but it never sounds "just like" any of the guitars it emulates.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

That being said, all we can hope to do is accentuate the aspects of the guitar that we like most. EQ can dramaticaly change what we hear, pickups can accentuate, or de-emphasize, various frequency ranges, amps can shape it also. In reality, these are simply filters that manipulate that "personality" into a desired form that we like.

There are certain methods of construction used by each builder in this industry. Each method results in a similiarity, from guitar to guitar, within that brand and differentiates them, as a whole, from other brands. Therefore an Emmons sounds like an Emmons...it may not sound identical to another, or be an ideal example, but it is recognizably similar to other Emmons'. The same goes for all the other brands.

The bottom line is that we each have to decide what sound characteristics we are seeking, then choose the brand that most embodies them. Beyond that, we need to play as many as possible of that model to find the one that "does it" for us.

Of course, we can tweak things like pickups, or tone controls, till we're blue in the face...and that can be lots of fun...but you, at best, can only end up with the best you can get from THAT guitar...no more, no less.

As was stated before, you won't turn a Sho-Bud into an Emmons...no way, no how. You won't even turn a mediocre Emmons into a superb Emmons...the foundation has to be there to build the greatest house.

So, find the guitar that has the best foundation for you, then build a fantastic sound out of that.

b0b was splitting hairs with his tone/timbre definition misdirection. It's a simple fact a basic "unit" has an inherent tonal signature, no matter what definition you want to go by - the semantics games are ridiculous - and NO pickup will change that. You can, as has been noted, massage the sound, and get unique enough sounds to create your own signature tone - but it will NOT follow you from guitar to guitar, even if you take your pickup with you.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 28 October 2006 at 06:36 PM.]

Tell 'em to pluck off. Have a bunch of guys over to play everything blindfolded, and see if they can identify pickups, steel brands, etc. Take the Seymour Hear More Challenge.

I've done this on a small scale with banjos and 6 string flattops and archtops. Some can accurately identify things, but many can't. I think that's because hearing varies just like eyesight. It's like those taste tests where a lot of people can't identify their favorite beer or cola.

That's right. I suspect that some people can hear differences. I believe George Gruhn can tell Brazilian from Indian, but I can't.

And maybe bOb can hear what Bobbe can't. But then, maybe bOb is always hearing things, or Bobbe's going deaf from the howling of all those groupies.

quote:

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Where is Pat Burns? Eric? Mike? Larry?

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OK, I'll weigh in with some profound comment...

quote:

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A fart will always smell like a fart.

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...perhaps, but that's like telling an Eskimo that snow is white...they have over 20 words to describe our word for "snow"...so in a general sense, this is like saying "a guitar will always sound like a guitar", which in the context of comparison to a snare drum, is true...but in the context of comparison to another guitar is certainly not true. Now a fart in it's natural sense won't ever smell like a bouquet of roses, so yes, "a fart will always smell like a fart". However, there are certainly many variations. A venison dinner at the American Legion won't be the same the next morning as a bean bake-off in Boston. Five-alarm Chili will produce different results than Campbell's Bean with Bacon. A Taco-Bell Burrito will not produce the same result as a Bratwurst with Red Cabbage, and the fact that you eat the Burrito in a Bierkeller in Bavaria won't change that. I've been doing this all my life, 7 days a week, for 54 years...you guys can argue about it, or save yourselves the airfare to Munich and accept my advice for what it is...the voice of experience.

quote:

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You are so silly b0b, but what would I do without you? You are my reason for being, will you marry me?
Bobbe

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Ya'll are welcome here in NJ. (Please Come To Trenton For The Springtime)

...and if I could find a pickup that would make my Takamine acoustic-electric have the same timbre, or tone, as a Martin D-28, it Shure would save me a lot of money.

[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 28 October 2006 at 09:08 AM.]

Edited to say: Pat Burns, You crack me up!
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72 Professional 8&5,73 PRO II 8&4, 79/80 PRO III 8&4,Fender Steelking, Hilton pedal, USA Tele, Fender Twin,Peterson tuner,Tut Taylor Reso's and Twang to the Bone!!

[This message was edited by Larry Robbins on 28 October 2006 at 10:03 AM.]

YES! There is a difference in the quality of sound that different microphones put out. But no matter how different they are, no matter how much they cost or how they are equalized, they will never change the timbre of the human voice, never make Porter sound like Perry Como, Ernest Tubb sound like Janie Frikie. The Timbre of the voice is like the timbre of the Steel guitar. Microphones and steel pickups just pick up whats there, its their job.(some better than others)

Every steel guitar has its own "Voice" and this is something everyone here agrees with. It can be "Picked up" with a poor quality pickup, or a great quality pickup, but the "Voice" of the guitar will come through with both pickups. Sure, one will sound better than the other, but the Emmons is still an Emmons, the Deck-Lee is still a Deck-Lee. The Emmons pickup installed on a Deck-Lee is still going to sound exactly like a Deck-Lee, because thats what it is. Put Dolly's mic in front of Porter and he is still going to sound like Porter, that's who he is. (and he'll still dress the same)

Gary, sure studio engineers use different mics for different instruments, different mics are manufactured to "specialize" in picking up certain frequencies, and to take different amounts of abuse without being destroyed. Who would dare to put a Neuman U-47 inside a bass drum just to get the "thump" to the tape????????? No engineer would. The Electrovoice D-115 is the mic for that job. But this mic would not be suitable for fiddle, not the corect response. However, if you did switch these mics, you sure could still tell the drum from the fiddle. (quality of both would suffer some though)
Come on Gary, you must have known this was a silly question.

Everything does affect everything, to a small degree, NOT a large degree. ( Except b0bs Zum pickup, naturally)

Bobbe

In the shadow of Pat Burns

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 28 October 2006 at 05:42 PM.]

If you haven't already done so, with the experiences you've had you should write a book about your memoirs, like Jerry Byrd did.

[This message was edited by Alan F. Brookes on 28 October 2006 at 05:56 PM.]

quote:

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A venison dinner at the American Legion won't be the same the next morning as a bean bake-off in Boston. Five-alarm Chili will produce different results than Campbell's Bean with Bacon. A Taco-Bell Burrito will not produce the same result as a Bratwurst with Red Cabbage, and the fact that you eat the Burrito in a Bierkeller in Bavaria won't change that

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A simple test can be made in an elevator using a stopwatch. One can readily detect the "lingering" effect (sustaining properties) of the Taco Bell Burrito being superior to the Bratwurst and Red Cabbage.

Now, try the aeromatic test outside in the wind. No appreciable difference will be detected.

Every pickup has its own "Voice" and this is something everyone here agrees with. It can be "modified" with a poor quality guitar, or a great quality guitar, but the "Voice" of the pickup will come through with both guitars. Sure, one will sound better than the other, but the E-66 is still an E-66, the 10-1 is still a 10-1. The E-66 pickup installed on an Emmons is still going to sound exactly like an E-66, because that's what it is.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Larry Robbins: Member of the "I get it club" for men!

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72 Professional 8&5,73 PRO II 8&4, 79/80 PRO III 8&4,Fender Steelking, Hilton pedal, USA Tele, Fender Twin,Peterson tuner,Tut Taylor Reso's and Twang to the Bone!!

Changing pickups in your guitar will not make it sound like another guitar.

Examples:

Putting an Sho-Bud pup in a GFI will not make the GFI sound just like a Sho-Bud and vice-versa.

Putting a Les Paul humbucker into a Tele will not turn the Tele into a Les Paul.

Then environment of a steel guitar (cabinet design) changes the way steel guitars sound even with the same pickup.

I don't know about eskimos having 20 names for white snow but I do know about steel guitarist's having 20 opinions about black guitars!

Terry

[This message was edited by Terry Edwards on 29 October 2006 at 06:41 PM.]

Concepts that are this foundational are often very difficult to understand and take time and concentration to sink in. Please be patient and know the great silent majority of us ARE learning from you and the many other veteran players here.

Misconceptions are often the greatest impediment to learning (on many levels). They make opening the mind to new ideas very awkward indeed...'cause we think we already have the answers. Think about it, Bobbe. And don't stop the information flow. Keep prying those minds open...PLEASE!!!

Except this is not a "guitar with a pickup" (I have one as well). It is a computer. The guitar itself has NO tone that is amplified - the system simply pulls out the string vibration's pitch and digitally processes it to trigger "samples" of other instruments. Talk to the Line 6 techs and you get the full rundown - that's why the guitar is a relatively cheap, but decent playing Korean guitar...as long as it plays fine, stays in tune and feels decent it is serving its purpose, as it has no "tone" the way the system is designed. It's a computer case with frets.

Actually, I've thought this would be an absolutely stunning thing to adapt to steel and am going to contact Line 6 about it - people have already dropped the system into Telecasters - just for playability and feel, as the "Tele" tone no longer exists in that case, except in the "models" contained in the firmware. If they could modify the "sensor" part to accomodate 8 or 10 strings, we really could be on to something. A pedal steel with the "tone of a Super 400, a '59 Strat, Mastertone banjo or metal-bodied National could be incredibly versatile - and fun.

Back to the original thread -

Lindy Fralin (pickup maker extrodinaire - I have a couple of custom-wound jobs, including one with a boost coil like Red Rhodes' "Velvet Hammer" that are great) talks often about how weak pickups are far more articulate and touch-sensitive; that "hot" pickups are great for distorted tones and blurred lines, but you lose the "sensitivity" of the playing.

This is where I think the steel world has somehow gotten things turned upside down, and here's an example - listen to the sound of the Bigsby on the videos Bobbe has on his site; compare those to recordings "modern" steels, and listen SPECIFICALLY to the touch, tone, and nuances. Bobbe can make it sing - granted, he's an extrodinary player, but just listen to the GUITAR, not the player. In comparison, modern steels sound like mush. the Bigsby has VERY weak pickups - and they sound wonderful, sending every little bit of attack and drive directly from the hand to the amp. Hot pickups don't react this way.

THIS is an example of what pickups affect - not the tone of the instrument as much as the "feel", the attack, and especially the articulation. This is one reason why many players prefer single-coil pickups - they tend to be a little weaker output-wise, and put the control back in the hands of the player. A hot humbucker, in comparison, sounds like you're playing through a compressor/limiter, with all notes smoothed out and "polite". A humbucker is MUCH more forgiving - and that's a reason some people HATE single coil pickups! They bring out every nuance (the weaker the output, the more articulate) and if you'd not "on your game" with your right hand you are dead. A humbucker is a great beginner pickup - except if that player goes on to a guitar with single coils he will usually sound awful for a while, and really not know why. It's because he's never had to learn the control and articulation necessary to play a weaker, unforgiving single-coil design.

This is the "massaging" of the tone i was talking about, along with tweaks in frequency response. They don't change the inherent instrument tone, but they CAN change how you play (you could toss a 'bucker on Bobbe's Bigsby, and after you're brought back to life from the beating he's given you - that thing will STILL sound like a Bigsby - just less articulate, with an even attack and a more "generic" overall response.)

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 30 October 2006 at 06:01 AM.]

Many years ago a tree was cut in the forrest and would ultimately become the wood laquared Fessenden that I currently play.

Do you know the last word said as that tree fell?

It was:

Tiiimmmbbbrrreeee!!!!

It was not "Tooonnnee !!!

Terry

keep us informed, Bobbe, you are doing a great job with your newsletter!

[This message was edited by Terry Edwards on 30 October 2006 at 07:20 AM.]