Agreed that removing lacquer does not get it out of the pores, and you are usually much better off staying with a similar color unless you plan on a lot of sanding AND bleaching.

Bleaching works great when done right. If you are only dealing with residual dyes/stains bleaching can work wonders - but you don't just "put it on" - you have to know the strength, know how to "spot" and "blend", know NOT to use off-the-shelf Clorox...it's an art form.

Trust me in that you do not want to use stain on maple but rather a dye. There is a huge difference between the two and most folks interchange the two terms. Dye is a very small particle size which can find its way into the cell of the wood. Stain is a large particle size and only remains on the surface (especially for woods like maple and birch) very similar to paint. In general stain and maple do not go together.

The proper bleach agent can work very well on maple. There are several different types available and each will only work on removing specific substances.

In regards to your project.

You have already stripped the finish. Lightly sand with 220. This will give you a good idea of how much of the old color has permeated the maple. If you have stains from the old color, DON'T go chasing them with sand paper. Some cases you would have to sand off a lot of wood to get rid of them. If the body has stain marks from the old finish then you need to plan on a finish color that will blend these in. Tint your lacquer and start spraying light coats until the stains and the new laquer come to a point that you like. Then clean out your gun and start shooting clear coats.

Forget about the bleach thing. Unless you are an absolute pro at that kind of stuff, it is not worth the effort. I have refinished at least 100 musical instruments and have never needed to bleach anything. Work with what you have and shade and blend with your spray guns. Hopefully you have a touch up gun and a large cup gun. The touch up gun will allow you to shade small areas to blend in the old stains. Most cases you will be shooting tinted lacquer AROUND the stained places first and blending the surrounding areas to the stain. If you shoot over the stained areas first, then you will be darkening them and make it harder to match the lighter areas.

Dyes are fine if you know how to use them. If you don't and they penetrate TOO much, you are really in a mess.

I'd also stay away from cup guns and touchup guns unless you own the equipment and know how to use it. Those are a great way to create a globby mess.

Let's back up a bit. If the "stain" is flaking off, it's not stain, it's pigmented...something. Lacquer, varnish, shellac, urethane...regardless, once it's "gone" and you have a consistent wood color, a cherry-wine finish is pretty easy.

You WILL want to use sanding sealer first. Do NOT use lacquer as a sealer - it will do a lousy job and you'll have blotchy results and lousy adhesion - that's likely why the old stuff flaked off, unless there was surface contamination. Sanding Sealer helps control the penetration of the stain or dye you go with. Otherwise, there's no way to control the penetration with solvents during the stain/dye process.

Once your color is applied, multiple coats (each made up of multiple passes) of clear...preferably nitrocellulose lacquer, not the acrylic lacquers..which tend to remain slightly soft. Each "coat" needs to be wet sanded with progressively finer grades of wet sanding paper, finishing off with 2000 grit or so. The stain/clear application with sanding between coats will take at least a week...then it should dry for a month to let the film cure enough for normal handling.

Back to the spray equpment - I REALLY recommend that most non-professional applicators go to Guitar Reranch for finishing supplies. Not only does Bill REALLY know his stuff, he will not sell you things you don't need or things that "sort of" work. He's the only supplier I know that has lacquers packaged in aerosol form that will spray evenly.

I've been in the paint/coatings business 30 years and have retired my conventional spray equipment...that's how good the products are.

I'll also return to bleaching - if your wood is inconsistently colored due to stain/dye penetration, wood bleach is an excellent tool, and used as a normal finishing tool by fine woodworking finishers, which includes lots of guitar refinishers. There's no reason NOT to do it - unless you are not familiar with the process.

In regards to doing away with cup guns and touch up guns, I would never get rid of mine. They allow you to mix the colors you want and to apply them in a way that you cannot do with brushing or hand wiping on stains or dye.

Mix the color in the cup and start spraying it on. Use the touch up gun or set the spray pattern on your large gun to blend in what you need. Then heat up your clear lacquer in a pan of hot water AWAY from the heat source. That way you don't have to shoot the lacquer so thinned out. Just bring a large pot of water to a boil and take it out to your spray area and sit the cup in it. Shoot about 4 coats at a time, let it dry and just sand with say 320 paper just to knock the glaze off and any imperfections that get in like dust or mosquitoes or whatever. Shoot 4 more and do the same. When you get the thickness you like, mix up a cup with a bit more than half thinner for a nice flash coat at the end. You lacquer will really lay down nice and flat after that. Let it dry as long as you can and start with 600 paper and a small sanding block and keep you a saucer of Naptha next to your bench. Dip the block with the paper on it in the naptha to wash off the dust so your paper does not clog. You can do an entire guitar with a quarter sheet of 600 paper if you do this. Do this outside or with a window open for plenty of ventilation. Move up to 1200 or 1500 paper and then your compounds with a buffing wheel.

Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Sorry but you are not totally correct. Stains are much closer to a paint than they are a dye in that they lay on the surface of the wood rather than penetrate the cells of the wood. The particle size of stains are many times larger than the wood cell so it is impossible for them to penetrate beyond the surface. It is this fact that causes the blotchy look when a pigment stain is used on woods such as maple. Any good finishing book will explain this concept in detail

[This message was edited by Robert Parent on 07 November 2006 at 05:12 AM.]

I have used Bill's method with great success and also have finished lots of pieces over 35 years. I would start with 120 stearated silcone carbide paper {white) sanding with the grain, then go to 180 grit, repeat, then to 220 grit. This will ensure that your surface peaks and valleys(RMS)will be at a consistent level ready for a great finish. Make sure to use a sanding block.

Thanks Terry

[This message was edited by Terry Hickey on 07 November 2006 at 07:33 AM.]

Robert - your point depends entirely on the quality of the stain. Depending on where the pigment falls on the Hegman scale, penetration is a go/no go proposition. Cheap stains, pigmented varnish, "Varnish Stains", tung-oil based products (for the most part) and exterior-grade semit-transparent stains containing wood preservatives will usually be on the rougher end of the grind scale. RFine-finish wood stains, most lacquer-based stains and blended dye stains penetrate fully into the pores of almost ant wood, save ebony and some of the relatively "impervious" materials. It's simply a matter of knowing what you're working with, and NOT taking the advice of the guy at the paint store counter, who has had maybe an hour's training in wood stains. I've QC'd the stuff in a test lab, and the variance in quality is astounding - there IS some real garbage out there.

And I *wrote* the finishing specifications for the Woodwork Institue of California, so I do have an idea what "good finishing books" say.

Both answers are right - it just depends on the product you're getting.

But we're WAY off track here - the originator of this thread isn't experienced at all with conventional spray equipment (and needles/air caps, pressures, patterns, etc), bleaches, dyes, depth control, blending, feathering, toners, or anything else unless I'm reading him totally wrong. When he asked about "a cheaper way of bleaching" I should have recognized someone with no experience.

I agree that the prognosis for a begineer to actually apply a nice finish to an instrument is very slim--but it can be done. I did it.

Difference being that I investigated what would be needed, went and bought it, I never practiced on anything. I started with a customers Fender Jazz Bass body who wanted a black finish. I stripped it, sanded it, sprayed on a bunch of black and clear lacquer. Wet sanded it and buffed it, and charged a lot of money for it and the customer was very happy. That was more than 25 years ago and a whole lot of finishes ago.

I hope someone doesn't tell me this is a "negative post"

If you do that, you are 1) creating an immense fire hazard, 2) going against every manufacturer's published application instructions, and 3) in violation of every law governing emissions of VOC's from coatings and subject to a whopping fine in 5-figures.

The idea of experimentng until you learn how is not a bad one, but if you're going to do it, you have to be prepared to spend a lot of money on equipment and materials AND spend a lot of time fixing things you initially screw up.

You CAN find classes in wood finishing in adult schools, offered by paint stores...even Home Depot. Those are better than wasting that much time and money.

And unlesss you plan on doing this on a regular basis, it's not real practical to buy the spray equipment needed to do the job when you can do just what I suggested. For a one-shot finish job, conventional spray equipment is a wasted investment. And nowadays, with other technologies available, it's not even worth it unless you are doing many, many of them on a professional basis, requiring a spray booth to do it legally...which you can't buy unless someone is selling a used one, as they require EPA permits that are only transferred - no new ones are issued.

One last note - no matter WHICH system you use, make sure you follow proper safety precautions - do NOT spray anywhere near a gas water heater or other flame (like in an enclosed garage), always have fresh air ventilation, always wear a NIOSH-aproved respirator (cloth or a dust mask does nothing to protect you), and always wear goggles (glasses offer no side protection.

The two saddest situations I've personally heard of were a guy finishing a guitar in an enclosed bathroom to keep the dust and spell down (he died) and another who blew up his garage spraying with the door shot (lucky-minor burns but a toasted garage).

Safety first, even with aerosols. Lacquer can kill you in several ways, and you'll not even know it's happening. We supply our guys with professionally-fitted respirators (and no beards allowed) before they ever get to a jobsite that will require solvent-emitting materials.

Staining over maple using sanding sealer as a base will tend to stop the uneven color but I found with maple with a wiping stain oil do not sand with very fine paper as you will polish the surface and nothing will stain. I use 180 grit and sand with the grain than wet the wood let dry and sand again with the grain and stain. The pots that do not stain I apply stain and sand it in with the paper.Gently wipe not too much and finish.

At one time I had 5 airless spray systems. One for the clear and 4 different stains.

I learned the hard way. I would get in a hurry and have to remove all the finish and do it again.

Most furniture and all guitars are shaded with a color mixed in the finish and spraying on as many coats as needed to make it look the way you like. The more you apply the more it looks painted. Clear the finish to sand and finish.

If you aren't going to do too many ask a body and fender shop to spray it and you will have a mirror finish.

Take your job to a pro and ask him what you did wrong and listen to him. A lot of amateurs , do it your self know everything and the job tells the story. A GOOD JOB IS THE HARDEST PART OF BUILDING A GUITAR!

and I'd never use airless equipment for lacquer - far too much pressure, overspray and almost no control. Nearly impossible to get a fine finish..It CAN be done, but you're fighting the equipment, and it wasn't designed for thatuse nor do airless manufactrers recommend it normally except in large-scale producion with waterfall spray booths and huge air recovery systems.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 12 November 2006 at 08:18 AM.]