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Bach is not in my repertoire, so I'm not concerned. I'm not even sure why that comment was made.

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I still think there's value in learning what other people have played, if only to understand the instrument better.

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I think the Bach suites for solo PSG are good exercises because they force you to play the instrument, instead of letting the (limitations of) the instrument play you.

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Doug, my musical direction is rock, blues, and country rock. I don't want to play classical, or jazz, or Broadway musicals, or hardcore country. It's not who I am. So this tuning happens to work for me, because it handles all the types of music I play very well.

As far as the 6th idea, if I'm correct even Paul Franklin plays 90% of his rock stuff on the C6 neck.

So - it works for me, and I'm not just playing Burritos tunes. Heck, it's great for T-Bone Walker and Albert Collins as well.

However, as far as EXACTLY copying licks as an excercise, I know some feel it's a great way to learn the instrument. I take a slightly different tack in that I'll copy the general framework of another player's work, and perhaps learn things like very specific hooks. But I'd rather play like me and find my own way on the rest. It worked pretty darned well on other instrumnts for 40 years, and the only reason it wouldn't on steel is some people just think it's wrong.

I think they need to loosen up.

" its limitaions become apparent when you try to play music that was not originally conceived with the steel guitar's limitations in mind."

Doug, the above was not meant for you, by the way. But oddly, quite a bit of what I'm playing not only was not conceived with steel guitar's limits in mind - it has had nothing to do with steel guitar at all.

I do not think Paul Johnson wrote Mr. Moto with steel guitar's limits being considered....

;-)

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 24 November 2006 at 08:01 PM.]

Anyway, I'm not being evasive, but I don't know what licks you mean...or even why it matters. Would you HAVE to play them EXACTLY like Lloyd?

From my perspective, I wouldn't want to...and as I've noted, with the rare exception of recognized "hooks" I have never thought note-for-note copying was very creative, except as an exercise. In other words, one of those things that you figure out how to do, and then don't.

Like playing the banjo.

Well, then I guess those of us using the B6 are all incompetent because we coulnd't figure it all out on E9.

Another way of looking at it: you're in G at the 8th fret (on B6th), and the chord progression goes from G to Am. You're playing strings 1, 2 and 4. You press pedals A+B and raise the 2nd string with your knee lever. That's the classic B+C pedal change I'm talking about.

Do you ever do that on your B6th?

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

I'd venture to guess Bach didnt use a C pedal.

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Would you HAVE to play them EXACTLY like Lloyd?

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But as far as I recall, and I could be completely wrong, since I play by ear and feel and not tab or theory, so I don't write the stuff down; On E9 I used to do the intro with either the A&B pedals (or both, I don't recall) and got the minor chord up a few frets with the A pedal (I don't recall if it was 2,3 4 or whatever, but I could then go up more to the "no pedals" C chord.). It sounded right moving up when I was more or less comping around the chords. but playing "licks", I was using A & B and changing bar positions on E9, and I wasn't playing chord positions - as I've said, I always found those "pockets" weird to locate on E9 and easy to find on the B6.

I don't recall ever using the C pedal on THAT song(or much at all). I might have used whatever knee lever got the "D" note on the second string at times.

On the B6 I use RKL, RKR and the 2nd pedal a lot on the intro and solo; on the rest it varies depending on what I'm playing; it's not "programmed" and I'm not playing Lloyd's parts...some might sound close, some not. If I wanted the Lloyd Green solo...I'd play a CD, not a steel.

"Do you ever raise your 2nd string B to C# and your 4th string F# to G# at the same time?"

No. It sounds weird.

"Another way of looking at it: you're in G at the 8th fret (on B6th), and the chord progression goes from G to Am. You're playing strings 1, 2 and 4. You press pedals A+B and raise the 2nd string with your knee lever. That's the classic B+C pedal change I'm talking about."

It sounds like G to Am, but it sounds wrong to me. I play G, the slide down 2 frets and use LKR; release that and press A&B (or 1&2, whatever) moving back up to fret 8. It has a better "flow" to me.

Just to explain more clearly without licks or parts in the answer...

I'm not dodging you at all. I just have no basis of understanding the question. I don't own an E9-copedent guitar...I tried it on the GFI, REALLY tried it...and did on the Shobuds and MSA I've had in the past. I don't get the tuning, don't like it, can't find "pockets" on it (something not important to you but critical to me) and it just felt toally unnatural.

I'm also an "unschooled" musician. You can say "D6add9" and I couldn't tell you what notes are in it to save my life, nor would I know what pedals to push to find it. Neither, on the B6 tuning, can I tell you what note I'm playing most of the time...nor what chord. I can't play scales. I couldn't do that on guitar either, and survived 40 years of gigs and miscellaneous sessions. I CAN play pentatonics and blues scales, and a lot of other things - I simply do not know the names of them. Ask me to play a mi7 chord, and I probably can't. PLAY a mi7 chord and ask me to play the same thing, and I probably can.

What I DO find is I can sit down at this new B6 copedent on my GFI, or even better on my Fender 400, and find things quickly. I can play what I "hear" for the most part. I have a LONG way to go, but I was not getting anywhere at all on E9 and have family obligations that prevent me from spending several hours a week (if you include driving and practice of specific excercises) and the $ on lessons, especially for a setup that just feels "wrong". So I went with what feels right...and the GFI is just icing on the cake, as it opens up a whole new way of thinking/playing. It takes getting used to, but most things are far easier. A few are toughter and I'm adjusting and/or might modify things. It' a work in progress. But the views that it's limited, or that you can only play "Sneaky" stuff, or some of the email comments I can't print are wrong - all those limits are in the player's imagination.

E9 is probably a great thing for some people, maybe even MOST. But not me. and I've found a few others feel the same way, and by posting a version that can be set up on a basic 3+4 10-string, a few other frustrated players just might be tempted to try it. If they like it, great. If they don't that's Ok as well. It's just offered up as a tool to play music with, not to change the world or destroy the world of pedal steel (more email comments).

But back to the questions - I am not ducking you at all. It's just that to me you're asking questions in Calculus and I'm not through pre-algebra. I can't answer a question I don't understand, and especially if I have no reference materials (i.e. a steel tuned the way you're asking the questions about) so I can't even "hunt-and-peck" an answer.

FWIW I have a list of about 200 songs with the key listed (sometimes more than one) hanging up over my computer desk, with all of them on iTunes. I play my way through parts of the list by ear. Sometimes I work specific licks out (almost always if there's a specific hook), but more often I try to find MY way through the tune. Like many players, I'm developing a set of "fallback" licks/positions for when things get dicey. But I tab nothing out, I don't annotate anything, I have no written "music" except a few chord charts for some more complicated things.

That's how I play steel. Also howI've played lapsteel and Dobro for a couple decades, and guitar/bass/mandolin for longer than that.

I recall a comment b0b made about jambands being an excuse for not rehearsing. Quite the contrary, and I can relate it to my steel approach - jambands I've known or been a part of rehearse relentlessly - you can't play 3-400 songs without charts unless you've worked them a lot.

and we had a really cool song to....

more like an opus....

25 sections /w time changes, modulations, all the stops....

try not rehearsing that song....

we would spend 3 hour practices on one song!
a couple times a week....

problem was...if that song cleared the dance floor.....we didn't know "Play that Funky Music White Boy",
to get them dancing again.

[This message was edited by Rand Anderson on 27 November 2006 at 10:25 PM.]

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

That's why the "pockets" thread was so oddly frustrating - it's not a "theory" thing, it's a visual thing, and that's hard to grasp when you know theory...and hard to understand WHY someone doesn't grasp it when you DON'T know theory.

All the correct split rods came in from GFI, and with Bob (at GFI)'s and Paul's invaluable and kind "fly by wire" instructions, fine-tuning sugestions, problem solving and loads of patience, the splits are now working perfectly.

I'm still figuring out the theory (a big thanks to b0b for some personal assistance that is much appreciated) but the 2nd pedal/RKR split gives me a 7th that is really useful and also I think a diminished when I add the third pedal; the pedal 1 and 3 combination (I'm used to two-footing on my Fenders so this is a normal move for me) look to hit an augmented chord; the LKL/RKR is at least a partial diminished to me.

If anyone sees any other things chord-wise that I'm missing, please let me know.

The other nice thing is the 5th and 1st string splits make for some fun and unusual "lick" stuff that I will definitely be adopting.

Paul's advising me on some minor adjustments that don't affect tuning or playability but will just make the guitar more "correct" as far as setup - but overall, it's ready...and really fun...to play.

Hopefully I'll have it at a show or something someday so people can test-drive it. Like Russ said, it may seem limiting and weird, but once you *play* it the logic and versatility really fall into place.

Thanks for all the input as well. Even somewhat negative comments are appreciated, as it makes me go "find" things that can't supposedly be done.

But the Bach piece I'll leave to Doug!

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"Seriously, b0b - you have no idea how hard I have tried to learn scales, chord structures, intervals, whatever. I don't know why it doesn't click."

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Jim, we have that in common. I'm still confused by 8th grade geometry of how to figure the heigth of a tree by it's shadow!

I've had to compromise my confusion by accepting that "if it don't sound right, it ain't", or if it does sound right, it's OK".

Of course that's grossly egocentric, but it's the only guideline that I've had during my questionable music career.

The only time that I've questioned that was when the first Korg tuners came on the market. I believed the hype about their accuracy until a band member discretely told me that "them guitars need a tuning". $275 down the hatch for dependability!

Oh, I still use tuners to find the middle ground, but I don't hesitate to "fine tune" until my ears don't hurt.

But, back to the subject, I have tuned my inside neck to B6 since I first tried to play "Steeling the Blues" in C#, back in the 1950's.

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www.genejones.com

Some songs for the season:

Winter Wonderland

The Christmas Song

    LKL LKV LKR P1 P2 P3 P6 RKL RKR
F#
C#   D#      D
G#                    A
E                            F   D#
B        A#        C#
G#                    A
F#              G#        F
E                            F   D#
C#           D
B    A#            C#
G#                    A
E                C#       F

As you can see, when my RKR is depressed my strings 4 through 11 are exactly the same as your strings 1 through 8. Also my pedal 6 does the same as your "C" pedal and my P1 does partially the same as your A pedal. Also, your LKR does the same as my LKV and the bottom half of my LKL> It's interesting that you use the C# note on string 6. That's a good note to have in there as a II in the B scale. The same as the F# in the E9th tuning. I think I could actually play this setup with a little change in thought process but I think it lacks something for me as I'm a Ralph Mooney freak and the high strings aren't there. What might be nice would be to have this on a 12 string with an added G# and F# on top. Check my P6, have you ever thought of adding a change on your C pedal to lower string 9 to F, and string 10 to C#? That'd complete your II chord all the way down. Lastly, good luck with your new GFI and I hope everythings works out great for you........JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!