posted 03 December 2006 08:17 PM
profileI used to think I was a pretty good musician. Then I tried pedal steel. I thought that was the hardest thing I have ever tried to learn. Now I'm trying to play pedal steel and sing. Clearly, this is harder than just playing.
posted 03 December 2006 09:29 PM
profileI've watched Junior Brown sing and play his Guit-steel and I'm just amazed. Don't see how he does it and make it look so easy. Keep at it I'm sure it'll get easier.
Papa Joe Pollick Member
From: Pontiac, Michigan, USA
posted 03 December 2006 09:48 PM
profileI tried it once.Note I said once.
Mike Winter Member
From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
posted 03 December 2006 09:54 PM
profileIt's weird, but I can sing and play drums or rhythm guitar, but find it REALLY hard to sing and play bass. Sing and play steel? Yikes...
[This message was edited by Mike Winter on 03 December 2006 at 09:54 PM.]
Gary Shepherd Member
From: Fox, Oklahoma, USA
posted 03 December 2006 10:11 PM
profileIt just occurred to me that what might make this much easier (for me anyway) is a headset with a mic. I find the most awkward part of the whole effort is leaning into a mic placed in front of my steel while trying to still be able to see my strings and frets.
I was considering running my mic through some kind of proccessor with a compressor/limiter anyway. I guess now I have something else to add.
posted 03 December 2006 10:16 PM
profileI use a boom stand, puts the mike right where I want it. I can sing and play steel, but I can't sing and play bass very well unless it's harmony.
Dom Franco Member
From: Beaverton, OR, 97007
posted 03 December 2006 10:39 PM
profileI have always sang while playing pedal or lap steel, in many groups (some sucessful)
I have often even been the front man on steel, but of course singing makes it more difficult to make large fret jumps accurately you have to look down and therefore pull away from the mic.
SO: I recently purchased an audio-technica headset mic to try out. It sounds pretty good, (Not as much presence and proximity effect as my favorite Shure SM58)
But it is always there where it needs to be even when you look down, turn sideways to make eye contact with your sweetheart, or even turn around to adjust an amp... you can keep singing or talking.
The only small problem now is that on some songs when I reach for a high note, I belt it out and would usually move back from the mic a bit, then come in close for softer passages. I can't do that now, but I am learning to sing out of the side of my mouth sort of...
Dom Franco
Robert Thomas Member
From: Mehama, Oregon, USA
posted 04 December 2006 03:45 AM
profileHi Gary, I have been playing and singing now for about nine years. I am a single and perform mostly for nursing homes and alzheimers units. I do some special appeareances for people and there parties also. I have been using a PRO Series Pro 8HEx Audio-technia for over 9 years now and it has been excellent and I have never had a problem or complaint about it. It cost $100 and is worth every cent. I would be lost without it. I find it very comfortable and it does not limit my ability in any way. I highly recommend it.
Michael Douchette Member
From: Gallatin, TN
posted 04 December 2006 04:36 AM
profile"Doctor, will I be able to sing afterward??"
"Of course you will."
"That's WONDERFUL! I never could sing before!"
------------------ Mikey D...
Ernie Pollock Member
From: Mt Savage, Md USA
posted 04 December 2006 05:02 AM
profileI just started singing a couple years ago, that is with the steel, its like you have to split your brain, one side for singing, one side for playing. I usually use a steel with my low bass tuning on it when I need to play & sing. It helps me to play chords easier. tuning here
But I know a lot of guys are not comfortable with singing, or this tuning!!
Ernie
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Gareth Carthew Member
From: West Sussex, UK
posted 04 December 2006 06:44 AM
profileI don't fancy my chances much! I can barely sing and play lead guitar at the same time. Sing and play steel?? Unlikey I think.
The irritating thing is that I sing better than I play, but I enjoy both.
I've been playing lead for nearly 12 years, you'd think I'd have mastered singing at the same time by now!
James Morehead Member
From: Durant, Oklahoma, USA
posted 04 December 2006 07:58 AM
profile"It's like you have to split your brain--" ----it would require a real small knife for mine!
Gary Shepherd Member
From: Fox, Oklahoma, USA
posted 04 December 2006 01:18 PM
profileJames, maybe we could put our brains together and come up with something.
posted 04 December 2006 01:26 PM
profilethere is a fellow in Pueblo named Donnie Duncan that make's it look easy, course he's been doing it a loooooong time
posted 04 December 2006 02:34 PM
profileI can sing and play the guitar or mandolin, but I've been doing that for 30 years. It is impossible for me to sing and play bass, and I've done that just as long. (DIfferent part of the brain.)
On the pedal steel, after 1 year, when I try to sing, I get distracted watching/listening to the instrument and find myself droping phrases and getting lost. I'm still at the "gee whiz this is a pedal steel guitar!" phase, and working on a fingerpicking accompaniment style on it.
Fred Glave Member
From: McHenry, Illinois, USA
posted 05 December 2006 02:00 PM
profileIt cannot be done. At least by me. Actually if I keep it ultra simple and just play an instrumental or between the singing I can get by. But I don't think I'm doing anyone any favors by attempting it. By the way, Gary, do you still have that Sierra Bellcrank? Fred
Michael Haselman Member
From: St. Paul Park, Minnesota, USA
posted 05 December 2006 02:36 PM
profileI've been doing it for about 25 years. I think the key is to get very comfortable at the steel before you try singing harmony and playing, then get real, real comfortable before lead singing.
posted 05 December 2006 04:00 PM
profileFred, I still have the bellcrank here somewhere.
I found that when we practiced this weekend, if I was singing on a steel song, I mostly didn't play, except on lead parts and a few fills here and there.
I really think the headset would help out a lot. Who has a cheap one for me to try?
posted 05 December 2006 08:24 PM
profileTwo fellas here in Portland play and sing while playing pedal steel: Harley James and Larry Behm. Both stellar players, too.
Tony Prior Member
From: Charlotte NC
posted 06 December 2006 02:51 AM
profilejust keep in mind, Eddie Van Halen is not SINGING while playing his solo's..
neither is any great Musician..they are comping chords behind the voclas.
On Steel it is rather difficult because we really don't have any "idle" time such as the 6 string or Piano. We are constantly concentrating on Bar position , string grips and feet/knees and right foot volume.
Lots of mental/physicals going on.
Distractions if you will...
Can it be done ? I think so but it requires yet another long term practice discipline to deal with. We pretty much have to train our body and mind to do it.
Ray Minich Member
From: Limestone, New York, USA
posted 06 December 2006 05:30 AM
profilePlay + Sing = Trainwreck (for me...)
Gary Shepherd Member
From: Fox, Oklahoma, USA
posted 06 December 2006 05:38 AM
profileWell, how many of you guys switch to different instruments for a while during a gig? I'll probably play acoustic on a few tunes. Maybe do a set on bass too.
posted 06 December 2006 07:19 AM
profileThere are some guitar and keyboard players who don't merely comp, but do play some fairly complicated stuff while singing. But they tend to track the vocal and play more simple stuff under the vocal. But they have one big advantage over steelers. The instrument plays in tune as long as you slap your fingers on the right notes. So they can use their ears exclusively to get the vocal intonation right. With steel you have to listen with one pair of ears and one brain to get both the steel and the vocal to play on pitch. Since you really can pay attention to only one at a time, you have to rapidly switch your attenion back and forth, leaving one or the other on autopilot during the switch. It can be done, but is way harder than playing a fixed pitch instrument while singing. Other variable pitched intruments, such as fiddle and horns, are rarely played while singing. It's almost impossible with a horn of course. But Rhasan Roland Kirk would grunt and hum while playing one or two saxes or a nose whistle. With fretless strings, it is technically possible, but very rarely attempted. Some country and bluegrass fiddlers can do it to some extent. And some upright bass players sing while playing - Willie Dixon and Sting come to mind, along with a bunch of country and bluegrass bass players who harmonize. But bass is easier to play in tune, because of the longer neck, and they are basically just slapping their fingers down acceptably near the right place, without making pitch adjustments on the fly as required for steel.
[This message was edited by David Doggett on 06 December 2006 at 07:26 AM.]
Tony Prior Member
From: Charlotte NC
posted 06 December 2006 08:28 AM
profileI think Dave is very accurate. For me, it has never been a problem to play Guitar and sing, and even Sing a bit with SOME minimal basic Steel..
But, I have never been able to hold down an asssertive Bass line or Percussive Bass line and sing a lead line at the same time.
Geddy Lee and Sting amaze me with that stuff..
but it comes back to, how did they spend there practice discipline..I have NEVER ever spent any practice time singing and playing Bass.
Gene Jones Member
From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
posted 06 December 2006 09:38 AM
profileGary is a great musician. At a recent jam when the backup band did not show, Gary used technology to provide drums and bass for the steel players. I'm hoping that he will shine at the next COPSG jam on Decemer 9, and will play his steel at the show.
[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 06 December 2006 at 02:56 PM.]
Eddie Cunningham Member
From: Massachusetts, USA
posted 06 December 2006 02:00 PM
profileWe are very lucky up in this area !! We have two great steel players that also sing very well !! Manny Escobar and Roger Trahan !!! Both great guys !!!
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Gary Shepherd Member
From: Fox, Oklahoma, USA
posted 06 December 2006 02:35 PM
profileThanks for the compliment, Gene. I like to play many instruments and I find the steel to be the most challenging and most rewarding. But I'll probably leave it at home again.
I don't think that I can play anything that the rest of you can't. And you guys are certainly playing some stuff that I don't know yet - at least on steel. So I'll probably just resign myself to the rhythm section again and keep listening for cool stuff to try at home.
I feel like I'm getting a lot better lately on my steel playing but I'd still rather be more polished when I play around someone who actually knows what I'm doing (or doing wrong). It's not such a big deal when I miss a few notes here with my band because they don't play steel. It all sounds cool to them.
Besides, like I said, I love to play all the instruments.
posted 06 December 2006 06:17 PM
profileNOW-NOW Gary, Don't be shy! Bring that steel, PALEASE!!
Dr E L Rickles Member
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama, USA
posted 07 December 2006 12:51 PM
profileI played lead and sung most of my life. Always wanted to play pedal steel.Been playing about a year.Missed singing so started singing with steel. It seems almost natural as when I played guitar I heard steel fills and tried to make it sound like a steel.Now I have the best of both worlds and am really enjoying it.Gets easier to sing and fill all the time. Doc
James Morehead Member
From: Durant, Oklahoma, USA
posted 07 December 2006 05:22 PM
profileI played out about 5 months into my adventure of learning the steel. I always made sure I set up a mike and did harmonies. (My lousey singing took the attention off my terrible playing!) That's been about 3 1/2 years now, and it's to where I can do a handful of tunes each night to help out our singer. Like anything, the more you do, the easier it gets. It won't happen if you don't start, though!
[This message was edited by James Morehead on 07 December 2006 at 05:25 PM.]
Alan F. Brookes Member
From: Brummy living in California, USA
posted 07 December 2006 05:38 PM
profileCan you pat your head and rub your tummy and brush your teeth at the same time ? You can ? What do you hold your brush with ? Maybe the same thing that you work all those additional knee pedals with....
If you sing and play separately your vocal and your instrumental will sound better. Recording in my home studio I lay down the vocal first, together with rhythm, and add additional instruments one at a time.
Watch this. Basil Henriques shows that it can be done well. Of course, we don't all have his talent...
Keith DeLong Member
From: Dartmouth NS Canada
posted 07 December 2006 06:44 PM
profileI can sing harmony and throw a few licks in now and then, but to do a whole song, I dunno--you have to keep it to a Less is More situation with the steel if you;re singing at the same time
Robert Thomas Member
From: Mehama, Oregon, USA
posted 08 December 2006 07:27 AM
profileI believe the thing that has helped me to be able to sing and play has been my past experience playing. For most of my actual playing with a group for many years, I was the single lead. I had to learn and know every song completely start to finish and had to play them all solo. Playing melody became almost automatic for me. Nine years ago I started playing for nusring homes and alzheminer units and they requested that I sing for them also, so I had to learn to sing and play at the same time. I use mostly two and three string combinations and sing with the melody that I am playing as my backup, while using a Korg Rhythm machine for my drums, etc. I believe the important thing for someone to be able to sing and play the PSG is to be able to play the melody automatically so that it just flows in a natural sequence. It takes practice but it does work for anyone who plays an instrument other then something that requires lung power. I have to say that I have never had so much fun playing in all of my years. Now about to turn 73 and still going, almost strong! Whatever you do, have fun doing it.
Topic Closed
The Steel Guitar Forum
posted 03 December 2006 08:17 PM
At least by me.
