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Universal or D-10 what's you oponion? (Page 2)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Universal or D-10 what's you oponion? (Page 2)
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| This topic is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Universal or D-10 what's you oponion? |
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Pete Burak Member Posts: 2750 |
posted 18 May 2001 09:51 AM
The philosophical points "all the legends play..." and "the standard is and always will be..." simply are not valid reasons to limit a persons musical exploration, expression, and individualism. IMHO, validating the philosophic rhetoric that we "must not stray from tradition", will render a mass of eternal "followers". |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 18 May 2001 10:01 AM
The assumption that ANYONE is limited on a D-10 is invalid. There is NO limit on what can be played on a D-10. If the limit that you are considering would be removed by combining the necks, then I submit you should play a 20-string instrument with 20 pedals, since clearly, that is more versatile and "limitless" than a U-12. IMO, the huge majority of great musical developments of our lifetimes take place by brilliant musical minds on standardized instruments, not by players changing the instrument itself. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 18 May 2001 at 10:05 AM.] |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 18 May 2001 10:17 AM
Jeff, Are there limits on a S-12 Universal guitar? What do you perceive these to be? LTB |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 18 May 2001 10:35 AM
Larry, I never said there were. But I don't think there are limits on a D-10. I do think there are some things than can be played on a U-12 that can't be played on a D-10. I also think there are things that can be played on a D-10 that can't be played on a U-12. I think using a U-12 allows you to combine the conventional stylings played on the two necks more easily, which is but a small part of the musical universe. I don't think you are limited by either. On the other hand, in terms of absolute notes, you're limited by both, in the sense that neither has the range of a piano. So in that sense, both are limited. It's not an objective answer because there is no objective answer. BUT, I can say objectively that the D-10 is played by most of the icons, and that it is the standard-bearer of the PSG. I know you think I should say that you can play more on the U-12 than on the D-10, but I just don't think that is true. I do think that certain players like that they can combine the conventional stylings of the E9 and C6 together, in the same musical interlude, and that for those players, the U-12 is the right instrument for them to play. But this is obvious. ... Jeff |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 18 May 2001 10:38 AM
Now let me ask you, Why do you not want the D-10 to be considered the standard? If you have no issue with that, then there is no debate, right? |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 18 May 2001 10:46 AM
Jeff, The only issue on which we disagree appears to be the importance of having a standard configuration. I agree with Pete that for an instrument barely 50 years old, insisting on standardization stagnates the progress of evolution. Maybe we should just agree to disagree (I think we've reached this conclusion before). I have no problem calling the D-10 the 'standard'. The importance I put on this designation appears to be far less for me than for you. So be it. D-10's the standard . . . lets move on. LTB |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 18 May 2001 11:45 AM
Time to go haunt some other threads. To the Batmobile! |
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Damir Besic Member Posts: 2326 |
posted 18 May 2001 11:49 AM
I would say that steel guitars have two standard models, D-10 and U-12,I wouldn`t say that any of those guitars are limited by any means.I think that the difference is in flavor of chords,I can`t say anything about U-12 because I had never owned one,but It just seems to me that U-12 would be guitar for players who love to play chords (exp.with 4 finger picks)and who are going little in to jazz direction.Wich is great.D-10 would be (with its E9 neck)guitar for players who prefer hard core country sound and they are straight players who don`t mix jazz and country steel (most of the time).So on D-10 they have E9 for their good ol` country sound and C6 if they decide to jazz a little.I`m a road player and have to play a lot of top 40 Country so I prefer my D-10 with a lot of effect because that is what buys my groceries.But I was always curious about U-12 and I`m pretty sure that one day I will get one,if I will keep it or not,I don`t know at this moment.14 strings would be definetely too much.But again,I`m not saying that 14 string guitar is not good (just to make sure with you guys who are playing one)  .btw,one question here,we all know that ultimate D-10 would be `65-`66 Emmons p/p,what about U-12?What would be the best choice for U-12? ------------------ |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 18 May 2001 11:56 AM
quote: Remember Pacino, in Godfather III, when he says, to paraphrase "Just when I get out of it, they drag me back in!". Now I understand, what he meant. There is ONE standard, I tell ya, ONE. It's a D-10. Now please, let me outta here. PUHLLLEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEE! |
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Damir Besic Member Posts: 2326 |
posted 18 May 2001 12:07 PM
Dear Jeff,you are free to go,NOW PUHLLLEEEZZZZZZZZZZZEEE ------------------ http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne/damirzanne1.html [This message was edited by Damir Besic on 18 May 2001 at 12:20 PM.] |
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Bobby Bowman Member Posts: 1271 |
posted 18 May 2001 12:25 PM
I'm not sure I know how this should be said. I'll give it my best shot with what little I know and hope that you guys/gals that do know will decifer and explain it a little better. Most of what you all have said is true, depending upon which direction you're coming from. To me, that direction is what all the debate is about and this is where neither of your points are on "solid" ground or at least on a good and firm "solid" ground. The issue, IMHO, is not a S10, S12, S14, S20 or whatever single neck versus any multineck with any number of strings per neck. Your concerns should be what basic "tuning/s" you start with and how you change those tunings to suit your playing and stylings with other strings and/or pedal/lever changes and combinations. It all depends upon how your mind, knowledge and abilities to "execute" are influenced and reflected at the "bottom line",,,,your playing and how it sounds. The player true to himself, should be able to find and determine what works best for him. If you want to use the "greats" as your standard, that's fine, but take it a step or two farther than what you are taking it. Whether they are playing a D-10 or a U-12 or whatever, I doubt that very few, if any, have the very same identical setup on their guitars. They all have what is best for them and them alone setting there for them to make their music on. There is no "best" or "better", or "bad" or "worst" except within the context of your own private experiences with a guitar. My best "blanket" advise for anyone, no matter what level or stature or merit you may have or be, is to KISS. And to know and realize that what may be "simple" for you may be confusing for me and vise versa. By all means, be your "own" person and play what you are most comfortable with. If you're not sure what this is yet, jump in there anyway and with due attention on your part, you should discover what it is within a short period of time. On the other hand, if being someone's "copy" (and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that), then find out everything you can about that person and go for it with every bit of energy you have. BB ------------------ |
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Glenn Austin Member Posts: 626 |
posted 18 May 2001 12:59 PM
It's a good thing that the A&B pedals are in the same place as a D10. I like the C6 sound but find it real uncomfortable to play. There is no armrest and I have to squeeze my legs together to get at the right hand pedals.I would definitely give Universal a shot and maybe even save my family jewels in the process. |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 18 May 2001 02:40 PM
Glenn wrote: quote:You should try a Williams 400X crossover model, Glenn. It's really wonderful to play that back neck from a comfortable seating position. Plus I can hit LKR and RKL at the same time without fear of crushing my anatomy. Just when we thought we were getting close to some kind of standard, along came all of these Sacred Steelers with their E7th tunings. I must admit that the idea of a single neck has merit, and the E7th approach is quite valid when you come at it from a gospel/blues perspective. It sometimes seems to me that once you reach the point of a 5+5 pedal steel, you can play any kind of music on it. The tuning is relevant only if you require certain specific transitions. A single neck with 5 and 5 can probably handle any chord you can imagine, somewhere on the neck. ------------------ |
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Bill Fulbright Member Posts: 434 |
posted 18 May 2001 03:11 PM
Well, I have to say I started a thread on this question before I bought my first pedal steel guitar. I bought a 1998 Sierra Session U-12. I love it. I am glad I did because I believe I have the best of both worlds in one neck. The thread I started was back in December,2000 if you want to check it out. After much discussion and very good advice and opinions posted by very qualified players, I chose the U-12. Now, that is not to say that I wouldn't like to have a D-10. I think they are so cool to look at, as well as play. I just needed to get the most flexibility for the money I had to spend and the U-12 was a good remedy. Sierra makes a terrific guitar. Great action, great tone.... no complaints, just compliments!! ------------------ |
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Joe Miraglia Member Posts: 771 |
posted 18 May 2001 04:47 PM
Just a little input from me. I play D-10. I mostly use the E9 for Country with the band I play with. I don't tune my C6 tuning and copedents the standard way. But I like the way I tune it for me. Since I have set it up the way I want it, I use it more comfortably. I believe no matter how you tune it or set it up, the key is being comfortable in the approach to your playing. Joe |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 18 May 2001 04:50 PM
Here we go again. Pros and Cons.Everyone has their good points to make. Ok? let us go back in history. I think I am old enough to remember. Played a little 6 string lap steel. Oh how I wished I could get a 8 string. Then came the Electra-Harp with 8 strings and 6 pedals. I thought I was in steel guitar heaven. I put the E6 on the one neck, and just pushed ONE pedal and got ALL the stuff I used to jump over to on the top neck. So smooth and easy, I would never give up my pedals. And it all melded together. I still had 5 pedals left!!!Wow! So I put all kinds of Chord changes on to play any music from classical , jazz , western, big band, and yes even country. Then we graduated to the 10 string and 12 strings. For more extended notes, chords, etc. I have played D10's Emmons,Sho-Bud's, ZB's. But finally started getting all D12's from Reece, with his tuning on the bottom and extended E9 on the top. Because that is where the market was at.I hardly ever played the top neck , as everything was on the bottom neck, so why bother? I guess I had it for Moral support. Now with all the top pros like Reece, David Wright, Joe Wright, Bill Stafford, Jeff Newman, Junior Knight, Zane Beck, Julian Tharpe , Vance Terry, and many top players like Larry Bell, playing EVERYTHING with their S12"s (Bill with his S14). WELL, the picture is changing, The Steel guitar world will be having a lot of S12 steels out there from now on. Emmons had better start making them again as All the other builders are doing......but for right now? "To Each His Own"..............al |
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John Lacey Member Posts: 1843 |
posted 19 May 2001 07:45 AM
I owned a S12 Sho-Bud back in the early 80's with the universal E9-B6th. tuning. The biggest drawback of it, once I got used the string spacing and feel of it, was the tuning. I'd get it in tune for E9th., it was out of tune for B6th. I got tired of compromising and went back to a D10. Given my recent change to equal tempermament tuning, it might be time to reinvestigate that tuning. |
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Gene Jones Member Posts: 5796 |
posted 19 May 2001 09:31 AM
* [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 02 May 2002 at 01:14 PM.] |
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Richard Plummer Member Posts: 235 |
posted 20 May 2001 04:56 AM
If a person sat down to play his double neck guitar and had a u-12 next to it,and had a person blindfolded sitting there,could that person tell a difference in the sound of the 2 guitars?If there isnt a difference maybe the u-12 should be considered. Richard |
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Steel tryin Member Posts: 298 |
posted 20 May 2001 06:27 AM
Jeff, let me turn this thread on it's head. Let's say Jeff Newman was the original innovator of the modern pedal steel guitar and it was in the beginning a U12 tunning. Would we be having this discussion about splitting the guitar into 2 separate tunnings with separate necks. That seems unlikely. |
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Junior Knight Member Posts: 589 |
posted 21 May 2001 12:37 PM
Well, here is my cent&1/2. I have played both the D-10 & U-12. Personaly I like the U-12 better but for 51 reasons(my age)I can't play the U-12 like I use to when I was 25. Plus with the wierd setup,or no setup as Bud would say-lol-I had some tuning problems that I could'nt deal with.I can play anything on the U-12 that I could on the D-10. The last guitar Carter built me was a KILLER both in tone and playing ease.I hope to buy it back from John and Bud. Don't sell it guys!!!! Check out my setup on the Carter page. Thanks, Junior. ------------------ |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 21 May 2001 12:57 PM
Hey, Junior I think we'd all be interested in some details on the tuning problems you described -- U-12 compared to D-10. I play U-12 90% of the time, but find the D-10 easier to tune -- less compromises to live with when you split 'em up on two necks. Still not reason enough for me to leave the 12-string at home though. Your thoughts? LTB |
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Joe Miraglia Member Posts: 771 |
posted 21 May 2001 01:10 PM
Hi Larry--You had better not leave the Beast at home. I'm now working with a band. It sure is nice not to have to carry "It" up and down the stairs, but it sure is a great guitar. Junior--I have 61 reasons. I do enjoy my Carter and being a D-10 I keep experimenting on the sixth neck. Joe |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 21 May 2001 01:13 PM
Hey, Joe You got SIX necks on that Carter???? Better not tell Johnny Cox -- he'll be jealous. The beast is in great form -- couldn't leave it home very often!! LTB |
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Joe Miraglia Member Posts: 771 |
posted 21 May 2001 01:50 PM
Larry--Six necks? That would make it much heavier than the Beast. I meant the neck I tuned to either a C6, A6 or Z6 with the eight ball in the side pocket. Joe |
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Pete Burak Member Posts: 2750 |
posted 21 May 2001 02:25 PM
Concerning tuning issues (my 2cents)... I played B6th Universal for a short time. This is where you tune the steel to open B6th (or Bb6th as the case may be), and you enguage a knee lever to play in E9th instead of enguaging a knee lever to play in B6th. The issue for me was this... The E9th tuning really demands that everything be tuned as exact as possible, whereas the B6th tuning can sound great without having to split hairs about tuning issues (IMHO). So I found in my trial of the tuning that enguaging the knee lever to get my E's for E9th is not as exact throughout the course of a gig as they would be if they were tuned open to E. So although I liked the B6th open tuning I found it was better for me to tune my E's open, and lower them to Eb with a lever to get the B6th tuning. I did however keep the strings set up to favor B6th mode, 1=D#, 2=G#, 3=F#. Once I relearned my E9th licks with this string arrangement I felt I really had a copedant that fit my needs. So I tune the entire E9th portion of my Axe first, then I enguage the E to Eb lever (and in my case I Lock it) and tune the B6th side. |
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Dan Tyack Member Posts: 3552 |
posted 21 May 2001 09:48 PM
I started on the D10 for one reason: all the players who I was ripping off played D10s, and it was easier to steal licks if I had a similar setup. Now that's really not an issue for me. The two biggest reasons I see for using a D10 are: -the E9th and C6th tunings really do have a different timbre. The exact same voicing sounds subtly but fundamentally different on the different tunings. Different is good, especially when you are playing different types of music on the steel. -Given the current state of the technology, it is better to limit the numbers of changes applied to any one string, and to limit the number of changes applied to a single neck. Things just work better, the fewer changes working on a tuning. I am playing pedal steels(Franklins) with what I consider to be outstanding changer technology. I don't want to start a religious war here, but I think that most builders would agree that the Franklin changer is 'state of the art', especially in terms of putting complex changes on an instrument. I'm pretty sure I could figure out a 12 string tuning and a copedent that would give me all the changes that I have on my D10s, but I doubt that it would work as well. I am actually moving the other way from a universal type setup. I am experimenting with 6 and 8 string lap steels with a number of different tunings, and will be playing a Carter with Chuck Campbell's Sacred Steel tuning on it (I'm donating it to the Sacred Steel Instrument fund, so I get to keep it in my studio till next year). I think it's really useful for steel players to develop an ability to play multiple tunings (and non pedal tunings). ------------------ |
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Franklin Member Posts: 742 |
posted 22 May 2001 05:15 AM
I guess I'll help defend the D10. Steel Tryin, Jeff, hang in there. To all, I would play a universal in a heartbeat if after I studied it, I found that it has more possibilities than I already have. The problem I have learned after studying universal tunings lies here. In order to get the most combinations from the E9th and C6th standard copedants, the U12 pedals have to be in a very specific and almost non-variable order. So when I and others stray far away from the traditional pedal copedants of the C6th and E9th, as we have done and continue doing, (which is what ALL universals are designed to emulate) than the universal becomes very limited in this area. I can not just drop and add pedals without a major concern for losing something on the other side of the universal 12's tuning. With the D10 I am much more free to explore different pedal positions without concern for screwing up the other side of the tuning. If I was content with a single pedal copedant on each tuning, maybe a new U12 tuning would satisfy me. Being content with the instruments tunings and copedants is not in my nature. There is something else out there to find. As long as I believe this a U12 will be too confining for me. |
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Pete Burak Member Posts: 2750 |
posted 22 May 2001 09:32 AM
Great post Paul! Thanks for joining in. To me, S12U is for folks who want a single neck axe that has all the basics of both tunings (with some occasional custom tweaks). For this I think it works great and fits the bill for many of us. I would've loved to have heard you rippin' it up on an S12U back when you were studying Universal tunings! Out of curiosity, have you ever concidered going to a D12? -pb |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 22 May 2001 09:39 AM
I've been thinking about a D-12 a lot lately, to solve two problems:
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Glenn Suchan Member Posts: 1187 |
posted 22 May 2001 10:18 AM
D10 vs. U12: The bottom line is about making music. Both make wonderful music in the hands of the experienced musician. Both are capable of producing the vast majority of chords/licks that most of us will ever dream of using. Beyond that it's purely academic. Unless you're true experimentalist such as Franklin, Emmons, Anderson, Stafford, Cox, Packard, Dixon and maybe just a few more, why question what the other guy plays? Be happy with what "floats your boat". As far as traditions are concerned, the history of the PSG will always be available for those interested enough to learn. It won't disappear if the instrument evolves. Everytime this subject comes up it's the same thing and nothing new is learned or accomplished. Sides are drawn and that's all. Spend more time playing your guitar and less time worrying about the virtues of one design or the other. You'll be much more happy. Keep on pickin'! |
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ed packard Member Posts: 1355 |
posted 22 May 2001 11:12 AM
Nice thread, ..encourages thought for the open minded, irritates the closed mind. Point one: Universal ain't universal. They come in a variety of flavors. E9/B6 with and without B6 locks, B6/E9, Eb9/Bb6, Bb6/Eb9, A6/D9, D9/A6,12 string, 14 string, a variety of setups, some with E69/A6/B6/13 series all on the smae neck, 24+1/4, 25, 25 +1/2 inch scales, tapered strings from nut to bridge, non tapered strings from nut to bridge, etc. The term universal belongs with the term chromatic strings, ..it does not describe the function. Universals should have been named "combination" as that is what they were when they came out. As time passes, they are becoming more universal. Point two: If one wants a "whole new" tuning/setup there have been many: The Alkire tuning, the Leavitt(sp)tuning, the 13 series structure, Bill Staffords 14 string with added G# on top and added low E on the bottom with B6 lock (at least the D10/D12 on one selectable neck), the Tharpe setups with E tuning and C#s sprinkled throughout. The popularity of these are usually related to those that have seen and are impressed with the pickers that use them. A disadvantage is that tablature is not as available for these less common tunings, and they are not heard on the records in the local record store or radio station. Point three: Most PSG would be's are Nashville/Bakersfield conditioned. Some are Texas swing conditioned. Very few hear anything but the above sounds. To be sure of having the possibility of making these sounds they would want the same tunings/setup as the "picker" on these records, right down to the setup/amplifier/string gauges/bar type etc. Sounds like the right approach to me, but a few will take off on their own. These few will probably have some understanding of the construction of music and adopt a system that meets their musical needs as they hear it in their head, and reason it with their mind. An endless subject, but if someone wanted to play "Night on Bald Mountain, or Pictures at an Exhibition" on PSG they might well use a different tuning and setup than used for San Antonio Rose or Cold Cold Heart; Same goes for those that might wish to try tone poems as opposed to I, IV, V tunes. Something about removing tonsils with a pick axe comes to mind. |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 22 May 2001 12:29 PM
Amen Ed! Very poignant indeed. I still stand on the premise (which of course we will never know for sure), that if BE and JD had never played a non pedal steel and IF, the U-12 was the first guitar they ever sat behind, the D-10 would very probably have NEVER been. carl |
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Dan Tyack Member Posts: 3552 |
posted 23 May 2001 12:03 AM
b0b, I agree on there not being quite enough strings in the D10 setup. I'd like an E9th with a low E, and a C6th with a middle D (I actually have that, but I needed to give up my low C). So I guess I'd like a D11, but there's no way that Paul is going to build be one, so I will have to be blissfully happy with what I have. As I said before, I see no problem with 'letting a thousand tunings grow'. Well not a thousand pedal steel tunings, but I know that every time I try a new lap steel tuning out, I learn something new. I know that experimenting with tunings hasn't hurt Paul's or Johnny's or Buddy's playing any, so I don't personally see a reason to consolidate tunings. Other than the weight factor, of course.... ------------------ |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 23 May 2001 06:35 AM
Just thought I'd throw this in again.  I think the new 13 string Universal with the 9th string D that Jerry Fessenden is building for me will be the best combination of both necks yet. It adds a low B to the extended E9 tuning and adds a middle C# (like a middle D on C6) to the B6 tuning with 2 and 9 lowered to C#.  ------------------ |
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Reece Anderson Member Posts: 1371 |
posted 23 May 2001 08:03 AM
I believe the fact should be considered that because the double 10 has been the guitar of choice by many of the players who have had the most profound impact on steel guitar, the entire past direction of steel guitar has been "played into" what it is today. There has been many thousands of hours devoted to playing and recording by prominent players playing double necks while "setting the bar" for others to follow. To attempt to place the Universal in the exact same arena by expecting it to deliver virtually everything possible is not a fair comparison. By the same token it is not a fair comparison when expecting a double 10 to do everything a Universal will do. It is my contention the future lies with the Universal, and when as much time, effort and recording time has been devoted to the Universal by great players as has been devoted to a double 10, a "new bar" will have been set, which could make the future of the steel guitar even more exciting. Until such time as the strengths of the Universal are explored by many of the greats to unlock the true potential of the Universal while integrating it into music which is heard by millions of people, it will not become the standard of the industry, but each day it is moving closer. |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 23 May 2001 08:22 AM
Maurice, You be da man carl |
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Steel tryin Member Posts: 298 |
posted 23 May 2001 11:29 AM
I have approached Maurice and Jeff to consider a formal approach to playing the WHOLE tuning. It seems if it will be done they have to do it. Unfortunately it just isn't in the CARDS. I believe it to be THE unwritten chapter of Pedal Steel guitar. |
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Dave Van Allen Member Posts: 5369 |
posted 23 May 2001 12:08 PM
steel tryin'- when you say "WHOLE tuning" do you mean looking at it as a unified thing as opposed to the "9th side" or "6th side"?? |
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Steel tryin Member Posts: 298 |
posted 23 May 2001 01:18 PM
Dave if I HONESTLY could answer your QUESTION I would probably get busy putting it together to make my name. I can just imagine if Buddy, Jimmy, Lloyd, Doug ONLY had a U12 to play from the beginning. I can think of endless passing chords and substitutions from B6 to E9 playing. Outtros may have evolved totally differently than they have to date. I'm not saying E9 & C6 should not stand alone. All we have to date on D10 is that crowd pleaser Doug plays on both necks. But I think there is a natural link between E9&B6 I'm just too musically challenged to figure it out. [This message was edited by Steel tryin on 23 May 2001 at 01:19 PM.] [This message was edited by Steel tryin on 23 May 2001 at 01:20 PM.] [This message was edited by Steel tryin on 23 May 2001 at 01:21 PM.] |
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