Billy Poteet
Emmons Legrande II
nashville 400 / lemay kit

posted 17 May 2001 11:00 AM         

David Wright and I, as well as Joe Wright, were playing S12U's in the Sierra room in Dallas. Perhaps you had a chance to here one or more of us play.

I've never owned a D10, so I can't really do a comparision. I've been playing S12U since about 1982, and S10 for about a year before that. I really like my S12U and haven't been able to find a reason to go to a D10.

I like the smaller body (single wide) and I like having both the E9th and B6th available at all times without having to switch necks.

I also like Sierra's Modular Pickup system which allows you to switch pickups on the fly.

Although mine was a 9x6 when I got it, I am now down to 7x5, which is just right for me.

I think the best thing you could do is go and try out someones S12U. You will have to allow yourself time to get used to the 12 string grips and the general differences between D10 and S12U copedents. In my opinion there are more similarities than there are differences.

Feel free to email me direct if you have any specific questions.

-pete b.

posted 17 May 2001 11:18 AM         

I did indeed go to a U12 after 25+ years of D10. I still (occasionally) play my D10. But I am very glad I made the switch.

as Pete B sez:

quote:

---

In my opinion there are more similarities than there are differences.

---

please e-mail me if you have more questions.

------------------
"I AM ZUMBODY!"

Zumsteel U12 "Loafer" 8&6 :: Fender T-8 Stringmaster :: Fender Tube Amplification
www.voicenet.com/~vanallen/ :: vanallen@voicenet.com

posted 17 May 2001 11:33 AM         

P .Gleespen said it correctly, this does tend to get ugly.

I will not attempt to tell you which is better because nothing on earth is more subjective than the PSG.

I will tell you my own experience. I played a D-10 for over 40 years! And I enjoyed it. BUT I always felt that it was a contradiction within itself. I have never altered that feeling.

The problem I always had was, I could NEVER find a copedent that would permit me to do EVERYthing I did on my D-10 without making it impractical to play.

I studied literally 1000's of tunings and pedal/knee lever setups. I have pieces of paper all over my house, some 40 yrs old with possible tunings. NOT one satisfied me. So I stayed with the D-10.

3 things changed all that.

1. I was on an airplane and I happened to be messing with copedents. I have done this many many times. And I came upon a tuning that for MY tastes and desires was perfect! It was what I had been looking for for 40 yrs. A single neck steel (12 strings) that would do EVERYhing my D-10 would do and then some. PLUS allow me to play E9th sounds while playing in the basic 6th mode and playing C6th sounds while playing in the basic E9th mode. And give me additional changes never before possible.

2. I was at Scotty's ISGC in '98 and Bill Stafford had JUST received his new Excel Super B model. When I looked at it, I went nuts. Because it allowed more changes (raises and lowers) than any other PSG in the world (to my knowledge) which I needed for my copedant, and it was keyless AND it was a 25 and 1/2" scale! Unprecedented in the industry.

3. It was the only steel in the world that lent itself perfectly to my "switchover" design where given pedals and knee levers will do other things on command.*

So I decided to make the transition. OH how beautiful it has been. It took less than 2 weeks for me to settle in and get my brain out of the "warp" mode and find the incredible possiblities on this U-12.

I have now had this PSG almost 14 months. And I cannot begin to tell you how much I love it. When I ordered it, I had Mitsuo install his standard "LOK" lever to lock the guitar in the B6 mode. I used it a lot at first. NO More! Don't need it.

As Maurice Anderson will tell you, Don't look at it as two tunings. Treat it as one and play what sounds you want to. Man how right he is. I am never aware when I engage the LKR which lowers the E's now. EVEN for extended periods of time. Amazing but true!

But the most beautiful part is, I can get chords and resolves I never dreamed possible and voicings that thrill me when playing what ever I am able to play.

One bit of trivia: I am NOT a good player. I am a terrrible player. But even my wife and family tell me, I sound better on this U-12 than I have EVER sounded before. And I feel it myself. It is truly a joy to play.

I just love it. NO way would I ever go back to a D-10. EVER!

Now, please there is just a whole heap of players out there who would argue me down to the last dying breath that a U-12 cannot do what a D-10 can. I won't debate it. They are all much better players than I will ever be and most much smarter. But I will tell you that for me, I love this U-12. And it pleases me like NO PSG I have ever played Bar none. (no pun intended )

So, if you are leaning in the U-12 direction, check it out. But make sure it is something you really want to do. Cuz it could just as easily be that you will NOT like it. Some don't. In fact most don't.

Some do. And I proudly say I am now one of them.

May God richly bless you in your quest,

carl

posted 17 May 2001 11:35 AM         

I love the lighter weight but more than that is the ease of throwing 9th licks into swing/jazz tunes and 6th licks into country tunes. I still catch myself playing one fret too low in B6 mode once in a while though.

Now if I can just find a capo for the first fret so I can play Hold It and At E's in in C and Remington Ride in D.

------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@home.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-12 (soon to be U-13) 8&5 (so far)=-

posted 17 May 2001 12:21 PM         

Really what I beleive is they mean I regularly use big sweeping B6th chords followed immediately by E9th A pedal twang then back to B6th single note runs (not particulary fast, just different from "country" licks) in the same song.

When people talk about the legends and what they play let's keep in mind "What they Play" for the most part this is standard Country (yes I know they play other stuff as well) Straight country uses all of the cliche albeit great E9 licks and Jazz uses big complex 6th chords and modal scale runs. If you're playing for Owen Bradly or Cole Porter on the other hand, errr neck, fine, but if you want to play some blues, pop, Americana mixed in with some Jazz and Country 1 neck is the way to go. As Carl stated above it is 1 tuning, not two crunched together.

[This message was edited by Robert Todd on 17 May 2001 at 12:24 PM.]

posted 17 May 2001 12:39 PM         

------------------
Regards,

John

Steelin' is a way of life!

My PSG website-Carter SD-12-U, 8p/5k, Nashville 1000

posted 17 May 2001 12:53 PM         

13. Unversals suck. No player worth a damn plays one. All players worth a damn play a D10 as gawd intended.

14. D10's are an archaic holdover from a bygone era, and you are a Luddite if you don't switch to a Universal immediately.

[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 17 May 2001 at 12:55 PM.]

posted 17 May 2001 01:31 PM         

If you must have more than 8 pedals and 6 or 7 knee levers a universal tuning may not be for you.

If a neck with 12 or more strings intimidates you a universal tuning may not be for you.

HOWEVER,
If you are interested in how E9 and C6 RELATE TO EACH OTHER (and they DO) or

You are more interested in playing MUSIC rather than licks or

You hear hybrids of country, swing, jazz, rock, and other forms mixed together

YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF TO TRY A UNIVERSAL.

If you are predominately a 6th tuning player, look at the Bb6 (a la Maurice, David Wright, or Junior Knight); if you identify more with E9, the E9/B6 is a worthwhile direction to investigate.

BTW, my new website is at
http://www.larrybell.org

Email me if you have questions.

LTB

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 17 May 2001 at 01:35 PM.]

posted 17 May 2001 01:38 PM         

LTB

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 17 May 2001 at 01:41 PM.]

posted 17 May 2001 02:03 PM         

quote:

---

And to philosophically
address other points, it is TWO tunings, not one mushed together. It represents TWO
fundamentally different styles of playing, and two different musical evolutions. And
there is nothing wrong with that, and everything right with that. Most great guitar
players do not combine jazz with country licks, most piano players play swing and
rock-and-roll differently, etc. etc.

---

Hmmmm....

I see it more as a mechanical limitation of the era, not fundamental approach. Leon McAlluf had what 3 or more necks and played straight country (faded love)to whuppin up barn yard fiddle tunes (Big Ball in Town), to swing jazz on diffenernt necks to make up for no pedals.

The comment about two seperate tunings, not one mushed together misses the point. Two seperate styles of music have nothing to do with what type of instrument they are played on. Again that was due to mechanical limitations. The instrument being split on seperate necks limits the options available to the player, just as much as removing a couple of pedals does, when there no longer exists that mechanical drawback.

posted 17 May 2001 03:19 PM         

A VERY well known player once said "When you combine the two tunings, you lose a little of each".

posted 17 May 2001 03:25 PM         

quote:

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I see it more as a mechanical limitation of the era, not fundamental approach.

---

The Universal started in the early '70's when the mechanics were available, and still has not become popular.

quote:

---

The comment about two seperate tunings, not one mushed together misses the point. Two seperate styles of music have nothing to do with what type of instrument they are played on

---

Two separate styles of music have caused the evolution into two necks. People LIKE that there are two fundamental styles. This appeals to them. Only you and a few others see a problem where most players see something that they embrace. I and many others love the fact that country music can be defined in genres such as C&W, country-rock, western swing, etc., and that we can relate those genres to specific tunings. You are trying to change human nature, which, over the long haul, rarely works.

quote:

---

Finally, great guitarists not combining styles? Have you heard Jimmy Bryant, or more recently Tony Rice, or on steel how about Jeff Newman on 1 neck?

---

Have you heard Curly Chalker play???? DO you think he could do that on the Universal? Do you think Buddy Emmons wants to do "Nightlife" on a Universal. I have heard Brent Mason, and Albert Lee and Leon Rhodes, play alot of stuff, and I don't hear them play jazz and country in the same song. And if they do, it's rare. For each name you drop, I can drop 2 or 3 on my side of the ocean if you want to get into that game.

The issue is not the versatility. I have already conceded that the Universal has more versatility philosophically. It's just that only a few people think that that is a reason to abandon the heritage of the D-10. The D-10 is OUR instrument. Even if you play a U-12, U-14, extended E9, D-12, or whatever. That won't change 'cause no one wants it to. Until you stop evaluating it in terms of the notes that can be played, and start evaluating it in terms of evolution, heritage, and human nature, you won't understand this. And in that case, I suggest you commission a builder to build a 20-string Universal covering 7 octaves of notes, with 18 floor pedals and 16 knees levers with mulitple staggers, double verticals, and wrist levers so you have all the flexibility you want.

posted 17 May 2001 06:39 PM         

Unfortunately You have mis-interpreted my intent. the two numbered quotes are OPPOSING POINTS OF VIEW, frequently (as in this thread) recurring on this forum.

To Clarify, pretend that you are two different people. Stand on one side of the room and shout:

"Unversals suck. No player worth a damn plays one. All players worth a damn play a D10 as gawd intended!!!"

now, move to the other side of the room, and face the spot you were just standing and shout:

"D10's are an archaic holdover from a bygone era, and you are a Luddite if you don't switch to a Universal immediately!!!"

get it?

In no way was my remark aimed at Maestro Buddy Emmons.
Buddy Emmons is the single most influential figure in the Pedal Steel Guitar "universe", a brilliant musician, and one of the primary architects of the PSG as we know and love it today.

He can play any thing he wants, and I will probably love it.

I am far from being "the bigest talent in PSG on the world,just not discovered yet."

I just play my little guitars and try to do the best I can. I have few delusions about where I stand in the "heirarchy"...I am just a pebble on the beach of the ocean that is Buddy Emmons' influence.

[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 17 May 2001 at 07:16 PM.]

posted 17 May 2001 07:20 PM         

Lots of D10 players have tried S12U's. Some like it better. Some go back to D10. Have you tried one yourself?

The one thing I've found ALL steel players have in common is that we like to try things out, and tweak things, and with any luck, come up with an original idea (are there any left on a standard D10?)

If you look in the back of Winnie Winstons book you will see mostly D10 copedants.
Which one is "our heritage", and which D10 players should be thrown to the lions?!

Keep Steelin'!!!
-pete

posted 17 May 2001 07:23 PM         

Billy,

was P. Gleespen dead on the money or what?

posted 18 May 2001 03:13 AM         

Do you honestly expect players who have come up with up to two twelve-string necks, clusters of nine knee-levers, nine floor pedals, a thousand different tuning and pedal variations, and "midified" modeling multi-space rack amps, would (as a whole) do ANYTHING that would simplify their instrument???

posted 18 May 2001 07:23 AM         

quote:

---

Have you heard Curly Chalker play???? DO you think he could do that on the Universal?

---

Absolutely

If Curly was still alive , we would know for sure, I heard Curly Talking about being interested in a 12 string guitar in 1976-77. Universal or not I can't say, because my memory isn't good enough to remember all of the conversation. There wasn't any limit to what Curly Chalker could do on a steel guitar and I'm sure a U14 wouldn't have slowed him down one bit, probably quite the opposite. I believe We Probably have missed some of his best work, by Certain Events preventing him to to move into the Universal arena, Such as a stroke and his death. Johnny Cox could give us a lot of insight here.

quote:

---

I suggest you commission a builder to build a 20-string Universal covering 7 octaves of notes, with 18 floor pedals and 16 knees levers with mulitple staggers, double verticals, and wrist levers so you have all the flexibility you want.

---

Its been done already by Julian Tharpe.

I'm not trying to enter into an arguement here, but just stating some things I know to be a fact.

Of Course I'm using the two of the most
exceptional players of all time as examples

------------------
John

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 18 May 2001 at 07:34 AM.]

posted 18 May 2001 07:48 AM         

'Tis true, the "biggies" ALL play D-10's. D-10's have indeed been the standard for 40 yrs. It may be for the next 40 yrs or even longer. I will concede that unequivocally.

But I must also add this. At the time the Pedal Steel was coming into its own after Bud Isaacs shook us all up, the non pedal steel had evolved into mostly a double neck scenario. True there were triple and quad necks. But the double neck was far and away what the mainstay of steel guitarists used.

There is a very good reason for this. The two tunings that had emerged as the Kings of the non-pedal steel were a C6 based tuning of sorts and an E tuning of sorts. While there were variations of these tunings, still most of them were C6 based and E based.

In other words, one tuning did NOT get it. 3 plus tunings tended to be impractical for most players. So the steel guitar for the most part was the double neck with a C6 based and an E (something) based tunings.

This is why the D-10 emerged as it did and it has remained ever since.

However, IF that had NOT happened. And the PSG was the very beginning, I will go to my grave believing the D-10 would never have been. Because pedals provided on ONE neck MANY MANY tunings!!

And the reasoning is, what one has never had they don't miss. In other words it is a "mind set".

Those, like Jeff Newman, Bill Stafford and Maurice Anderson attest to what a U-12 can do. And they are geniouses at it.

The problem is when one has grown up with something, they tend to NEVER go away from it physically, but more importantly mentally. It is the nature of man.

I resisted the U-12 for over 40 yrs. And it was based on sound reasoning studying copedents in infinite detail trying to have a tuning that included EVERYthing I had on both necks.

That withstanding, I now feel that the D-10 concept for PSG is based on a wrong premise. True, the "biggies" all play it. 99% of recordings use it. But that is NOT because it has to be that way. It is purely because it is tradition for the most part IMHO.

We will never know this for sure, but I believe with all my heart that if Jimmy Day and Buddy Emmons had never played a Double neck guitar and the first guitar they EVER sat down to was a U-12, BOTH of them AND most players WOULD be playing U-12's today.

I have at least a bit of proof to my theory. And it is simply this. How many players out there have never bought anything but a D-10, and have NEVER touched the C neck? Or touched it so little that it was for all practical purposes useless. WHY?

Also, how many recordings to today use the C neck?

Think about these facts.

My opinions of course.

God bless you all,

posted 18 May 2001 08:13 AM         

This is like a Catholic arguing with a Baptist and a Hindu. They are all right AND they are all wrong.

Duke it out guys. Most of you know which side of the fence I'm on (if you care).

LTB

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 18 May 2001 at 08:28 AM.]

posted 18 May 2001 08:55 AM         

What about Bucky Pizzarelli and other masters of the 7-string guitar? the five- and six string bass?

What about any keyboardist who doesn't play a standard 88-key ACOUSTIC piano?

I maintain that
1. Those instruments ARE still evolving and are not nearly as standard as some would like to believe.
2. Standards are not really critical in determining the legitimacy of an instrument.

A good musician can play a comb and tissue paper -- and it doesn't matter what color the comb is or how heavy the tissue paper.

Just my li'l ole opinion.

LTB

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 18 May 2001 at 09:01 AM.]

posted 18 May 2001 09:17 AM         

quote:

---

Should Johnny Gimble not play a 5 string fiddle because it's not the 'standard'?
What about Bucky Pizzarelli and other masters of the 7-string guitar? the five- and six string bass?

---

posted 18 May 2001 09:24 AM         

Although I've never seen or heard of anyone with this configuration, it is certainly possible if someone wanted it... On either a D10 or an S12U.
If I had a set up like this, I would be absoulutely dying to have someone want to "sit in" on my Axe!