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Averting high G# breakage is a problem. (Page 2)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Averting high G# breakage is a problem. (Page 2)
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| This topic is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Averting high G# breakage is a problem. |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 07 July 2001 03:30 AM
Jim S., I enjoyed reading your reply. My tuning at the present time is D9th,and has been for years. This tuning is used on my homemade single 10. Of course, unlike the excessively tense E9th tuning, a variety of options are opened, where the string gauges can vary up to .003. It is possible to use three .014 strings with the D9th tuning. Two .036 will work well for the 9th, and 10th string. I still detect pesky trauma areas near the end where the strings pass over the changer. This atypical nuisance will subside appreciably with the change to C9th chromatic. Bill H. |
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Rainer Hackstaette Member Posts: 423 |
posted 07 July 2001 04:50 AM
In another thread on the same problem Kenneth Kotsay wrote: "Why not re-invent the .011 G# string. If NASA needed an unbrakable G# string to send off with a Mars landing craft and yes it did have a 90 degrees bend and yes it raised to 1/2 tone and yes it acted just like a pedal steel guitar, and indeed it needed to be activated 50 billion times an hour, don't you think NASA would come up with this unbrakeable G# .011 string (for a few million dollars, but they would get it to work and last for the trip to Mars AND back to earth." The recent success story of NASAŽs "Mission to Mars" project makes me wonder if the scenario wouldnŽt be like this: 1. The "Development of the Unbreakable G# String" project sets back the taxpayer an estimated 75.6 billion U.S. dollars. As a result income tax is increased by 3.5 % (and if you donŽt believe me - read my lips ...). 2. Final testing data of the prototype in the NASA space simulator show a performance of 250 % above requirements, but the string that actually makes the journey is a noname substitute made in Singapore. 3. Upon arrival on Mars the string fails. Close inspection by remote camera reveals that the string is unbroken, but has no ball end, because the specs sheet did not explicitly state that the string was to go ON the guitar. If you want a space technology solution, I would recommend instead to have the problem tackled by a former cosmonaut with at least a nine monthsŽ experience onboard the MIR. 1. HeŽd gladly do it for a burger and a bottle of Bud. 2. He would manage to get a 95 % performance out of that G# string even though it was broken (and you can easily blame the missing 5 (per)cents on cabinet drop ...). 3. As a bonus heŽd throw in the songbook "500 Most Popular Folk Songs and Dances of Northern Kasakhstan", all tabbed out in E9 and C6, and with a play-along CD featuring the Almati Accordion Orchestra. Minor drawbacks to this scheme are: 1. The installation of the "Original G# Lifesaver" contraption can only be done in a small wooden shack near the launch pad at Baikonour, because customized tools are needed - such as a hand-bent screwdriver. 2. Upon returning, the decal on your Super Pro reads "Khara-Sho-Bud" in cyrillic letters. (A note to non-slavists: "kharasho" is Russian for "good" or "pretty" or, more often, "pretty good".) 3. Forever after, your E9 neck will sound like a 10 string balalaika, and any up-tempo song you attempt comes out as "Sabre Dance" in unequal tuning.
Rainer ------------------ |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 07 July 2001 06:10 AM
Rainer, What an exceptional reply!! It contains the same remarkable qualities as when the Scot. missionary, Dr. David Livingstone was located in Africa, while exploring there. After the long search his finder said," Dr. Livingstone, I presume." Here is my brevity. You are a great writer!! Bill H. |
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Dave Robbins Member Posts: 718 |
posted 07 July 2001 06:11 AM
One thing that has helped me in regards to 3rd string breakage, is to be careful not to "over stertch" the string when you put it on. I try to get the string as close to pitch as possible with as even windings as possible, maybe up to about the F or F# position and then begin to use "only" the pedal to stretch the string and then one pedal press per turn of the key and try to sneak up on it. Once I get to the G# pitch, I raise it to pitch with the tuning key and then depress the pedal for a moment, release,raise it back up with the tuning key again, depress the pedal again and continue this whole process ove and over until I see the string settle down to pitch where it will stay without having to turn the key again.This way you are not over-stretching the string past the pitch that it is going to be pulled to. I have seen guys really stretch their 3rds a lot when they are cranking them on and I have found that all that does is take all the life right out of the string. Don't stretch it to death trying to get the strech out of it! This has significantly helped the life of my 3rd on my guitars. I also use 11.5's or any 11 that is "heavy duty" purpose intended. Standard 11.0's aren't going to live, and a lot of times I had trouble with even getting them to pitch. I remember one time I went through a whole dozen of a "popular steel guitar brand" (name witheld) trying to get an 11.0 up to pitch on a club gig. I finally ran out and got an old rusty Ernie Ball 11.0 from the guitar player who had been carrying it around in his case for a long time. Funny thing was, the old "Ernie went right up and stayed! And it stayed for a long time. I finally removed it one day just because I couldn't believe any string would last that long! Anyway, "don't over stretch your strings putting them on!" All you'll do is reduce the number of pulls that string is going to have during it's life. Of course if you're playing one of the newer changer designs with the "lateral pull", it don't matter, anyway. Right, Carl? Dave Robbins (GHS endorsee) |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 07 July 2001 06:34 AM
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John Hawkins Member Posts: 588 |
posted 07 July 2001 08:17 AM
To add to Daves'post ! I do the same proceedure on my Zum when putting on the .011 guage . I also make sure that I wrap the .011 as many times around the tuning shaft as it takes to cause the last wrap to be as close to where the tapper of the tuning shaft begins . This has served two purposes for me . 1- it causes the string to come off the top roller in a straight line to the shaft ( which all of the strings should do ). 2- it gets the string far enough away from the shaft hole which can cause breakage if the string is coming off the shaft and right over the sharp edge of the hole . I change my complete set at least every month but I have purposely left the .011 on way past that just to see, and got approx. 100 hours of playing time off the string . The method that Dave posted and this little additional proceedure has sure worked for me ! John |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 07 July 2001 08:55 AM
This is complicated by the fact that individual strings suffer from the same problem that most mass-manufactured items do. They are extremely inconsistent in quality. Most steel players have bought a dozen 011s at the local Guitar Center, busted one on a gig, and found that the first three replacements pop before they reach G# or A. By the same token, some strings will magically last MONTHS. You can't see the difference, but many strings have thin spots or imperfections in the steel. The ideas presented here are excellent. We must do the best we can with what we're given sometimes. The G# to A change, regardless of what gauge or manufacturer you choose, will continue to push the limits of the materials we are using. Changing the 3rd and 5th on E9 every week or two, keeping burrs off the tuning machine post and changer, and winding the string properly is about the best we can do. MHO LTB ------------------ |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 07 July 2001 09:06 AM
quote: I don't think it's tension. Carl proved you can stretch an "011" ten thousand times and not break it. What breaks the string is the constant bending at the same point. You ever try to break a thin wire? If you have't a tool, the usual way is to constantly bend it back and forth. Eventually, it wil snap. String breakage on a PSG it the same principle, constant bending, forming a kink (weak point) that eventually breaks. |
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Tony Palmer Member Posts: 1022 |
posted 07 July 2001 09:36 AM
I wonder if the string was annealed for about 2 inches at the ball end.....would that make a difference? If the temper is taken out of the string at (just) the point of breakage, perhaps the constant bending wouldn't fracture the metal like it does when it's brittle. |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 07 July 2001 09:38 AM
So then, I would raise the question that was already asked here: quote: I have 2 PSGs and a 3rd that I sold fairly recently. All with the same scale, but my Emmons appears to have a smaller radius changer. The Emmons goes through .011s like there's no tomorrow, but my other 2 PPs don't break strings at all. What gives? |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 07 July 2001 10:25 AM
Several points have been raised. ALL valid. Here is my findings over the last 40 yrs with PSG's. 1. Most string breakage occurs at the very top of the changer. 2. There is indeed breakage at the key post. 3. There is breakage at other places along the string occasionally. But MOST of the breakage of strings (if they will get up to pitch) occurs at the very top of the changer. This breakage IS due to bending of the string. NOT stretching of the string. If it were due to stretching, the breaks would occur at numerous places along the string. THis just not happen in 99% of the cases. If you will take note you will remember that little quarter shaped end of the string and see the point that it breaks. That is where the bend IS most acute. Now one could theorize all day and all night. But the fact remains that the Excel super B models and Anapeg models simply do not break strings. And these Steels do NOT bend the strings to change pitch. They pull in a straight line. There are 3 common scenarios where a string breaks: 1. At the keypost. 2. While tuning up to pitch right after a string is replaced. and, 3. Right at the top of the changer. In item 1, this can amost always be cured by adding more wraps getting the "string exit" point away from the hole in the peg. Also, making sure the string pulls in a straight line with respect to the nut roller helps minimize hysterisis. In item 2, this is almost ALWAYS due to a bad string. The habit of bringing the string up to pitch slowly or keeping the pedal down, etc, is NOT necessary if the string is good. The late and great Gene O'Neal proved this to me, conclusively 35 yrs ago. If the string is good, you can run that string right on up to pitch as fast as you want and pump that pedal as hard as you want. It will not break. If it breaks the string is simply bad. In item 3, the string is breaking due to its being bent. Anapegs and Excels prove this beyond ANY shadow of a doubt. Neither of these guitars bend the strings. They stretch and relax the string in an almost straight line. Now add this ironic thing as final proof. Both of these guitars wrap the string in over the top of the changer! In Excel's case a full 90 degrees! So the string IS bent. BUT that bend stays the same. In other words, it never bends again. These manufacturers have SOLVED the problem of premature string breakage! My congratualtions to them. carl |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 07 July 2001 11:59 AM
I'm still curious as to why some conventional changers don't seem to break strings within any reasaonable timeframe *(problem more or less 'solved') while some do. |
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Jody Sanders Member Posts: 2889 |
posted 07 July 2001 01:29 PM
In the" good old days'(Fender 1000, Home made. etc.) most of the players , including myself, tuned to D9th because of 3rd string breakage. Almost everyone was using .010 gauge for the 3rd. string. As I recall, Fender strings were the strings everyone was using. Lew Houston did his Twitty recordings on D9th. Actually, the "good old days" were screaming hell for pedal steel players trying to stay in tune and worrying about string breakage. Jody, |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 07 July 2001 01:59 PM
S.G.F.M., Believe it or not, a possible solution came into my thoughts today, that would eradicate the 3rd string breakage. It was something that just came to me quite suddenly. The changer part of the mechanism is very clearly thought out. I just need a short period of time to envision the link up below the changer. It does not resemble anything I've seen since the inception of the universal changer. Bill H. |
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Dave Robbins Member Posts: 718 |
posted 07 July 2001 03:08 PM
Carl, yes, I agree with you mostly, but only in part. I know what you mean about Gene cranking that 3rd right up. I have seen him do it many times and I used to do the same thing. But, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. I have experimented with this way too many times and have found that possibly the strings have changed somewhat from the way they used to be. No way can I get a 3rd to just crank right up to pitch. I became aware of this when I first got my LeGrande III. At first I thought that it was because the guitar was new, or a bur in the tuning key shaft, etc. I found I had to be a lot more careful with cranking the string up. So, I got out my old 64 Emmons, because I used to do that with it, and found I couldn't just crank them right up on it anymore, either. I think something in the material of strings has changed. I'll not go as so far to say that "quality" has changed, but something has. You can make your own observation. If I break a string on the bandstand now (rarely though) it takes a while to get the string up to pitch safely. No more just cranking them right up! No way, because they'll just break on the way up, or very quickly after it is brought to pitch. Like I said, this has started happening on either of my guitars, whether new or old, regardless of brand of string. This is especially critical with a regular 11.0 string, but the 11.5 or a heavy duty type (PG) intended for steel, seems a lot more forgiving. I have also gone to 17 PG's that are intended for the steel for the same reason. I have a GHS endorsement and have talked to them about this. All they tell me is to use the strings that are specifically intended for the steel. I have tried it with other brands only to find the same scenario, so it doesn't seem to have anything to do with brand. In the case of the GHS product that I use, I have found that the 11.0 PG is much better than the regular 11.0 intended for standard guitar. I can't really tell any difference by looking at them, but something is different. So, anyone buying strings right off the rack at your local store, needs to be aware of this. Don't just buy the regular standard guitar type of string they carry. Look for the strings that have PG or something like that which indicates the string to be a heavier version other than the standard guitar type. Also, if you are putting on a string on a cold stage or in a cold room, be extra careful. The rods "shorten" on a cold stage and you could pull it too far and break the third more easily. Buddy told me about this and also I noticed this at the Opry where we tune up in the dressing room which may be at one temperature and then play on the stage at another temperature. The dressing room always seems to be a little warmer than out on stage. I've checked the tuning in both locations and find this to be true. That's the reason you'll see some steel players who tune up at stage side. Dave Sorry for the long post, but I thought it might be helpful. |
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John Hawkins Member Posts: 588 |
posted 07 July 2001 03:17 PM
Jody , Man, you are right on target with the living hell we went through back then trying to stay in tune and "duck'n " three or four times during a gig when those strings would let go . My first pedal experience was with the old Multicord then I went to the Fender 1000 (it weighed about the same as the model # when I tried to carry it any where !!) What a time !! They both about drove me crazy John |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 07 July 2001 03:41 PM
Dave, I wonder if the GHS .011PG's are the same as the George L's strings? I've used George L's for years and recently bought a couple of sets of the GHS SS steel strings. I seem to get about the same amount of time out of the GHS .011PG as I do the George L's strings. But, the standard GHS.011 does not last as long. Since GHS OEM's George L's strings, the .011's may be the same??????? I do hear a difference between the George L's and the GHS on the wound strings. [This message was edited by Jack Stoner on 07 July 2001 at 03:43 PM.] |
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Dave Robbins Member Posts: 718 |
posted 07 July 2001 07:17 PM
Jack, I really don't know. You bring up an interesting question. I'm afraid the only ones who would know might not want to tell (the brands themselves). I used to use D'Addario XLS's in SS, When I switched to the GHS's I heard a little difference. But, for the last while I have switched to "nickle" and love them! Nickle may not be for everyone, but I like how they "mellow" the low end which was something I had trouble with. I also think the nickle is easier on the changer with less wear to the fingers. On a bright guitar a person might want to try the nickle, the contrary would be true for the SS. Of course if a bright guitar and bright low end is what a person wants then the SS would be the way to go all the way around. The 11.0 PG or the 11.5 PG seem to work equally well. Once I discovered the PG type I went back to the 11.0 (PG) and had good success. I think the main thing is like I said in my previous reply that as long as it is a heavy duty model (like the PG for example) you find they last much better. Dave |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 07 July 2001 11:01 PM
As I understand it, there are only a few string factories. I've heard that there are three. However, that doesn't make all of these different brands of strings identical. The string vendor specifies the alloys, core size, round vs. flat wound, etc. and the factory makes it to those specs. So, GHS may manufacture Brand X, but that doesn't make the Brand X strings identical to the strings that GHS markets under their own name. That's the way I've come to understand it, anyway. Someone correct me if I'm worng. ------------------ |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 08 July 2001 03:29 AM
I did a string article for the PSGA newsletter several years ago. I could never confirm the exact number of actual string manufacturers, but 3 was all that I could confirm that actually made the strings. There are others that claim they make them but none could be substantiated. And, yes there are many different grades and compositons of strings. As far as stainless steel (wound strings) being harder on a changer, I don't see it on my Franklin. My Franklin will be 19 years old Christmas and I've used Lawrence/George L's almost exclusively since it was new. There is less wear on the changer fingers than there was on the 12 year old 71 Emmons PP that I had that I used either Sho-Bud or Emmons strings (nickel). |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 09 July 2001 05:38 AM
S.G.F.M., What do you do when a newly purchased string breaks immediately after its placement on the steel guitar? Do you throw it on the bandstand, stage, or wherever your steel is set up. Maybe you choose to stare at it for a few seconds before tossing it away. Later on these departed strings could be worth $$$$. |
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Gene Jones Member Posts: 5796 |
posted 09 July 2001 08:22 AM
* [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 02 May 2002 at 01:29 PM.] |
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pdl20 Member Posts: 436 |
posted 19 July 2001 09:01 AM
i used to tune to Eb9th. made a 1 fret difference. opened up different opened,barred string positions and gave me a nice mellow E9th sound and a touch of the balsy c6th tone plus i still used the same string gauges and had less string breakage. ------------------ |
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Jerry Brightman Member Posts: 757 |
posted 19 July 2001 09:21 AM
Bobby, I've had great success with the Jagwire Also, there are a few more then three Jerry [This message was edited by Jerry Brightman on 19 July 2001 at 10:20 AM.] |
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Bill Ferguson Member Posts: 1391 |
posted 19 July 2001 01:35 PM
I rarely break a 3rd. string. I guess they would break if I left them on long enough. But I have learned to replace that string before I start a gig, about every 3rd. night. I change all my strings after 6 nights, so it's no big deal for me. I don't think I would like the sound of ANY of my strings left on for over a year. And what about rust created from the acid in your skin. Have not seen that mentioned when talking about leaving a string on that long. Why I start to get that rust squeak after a couple of nights, especially if we play outside. And yes, I wipe my strings down at every break. Bill Ferguson ------------------ |
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Henry Member Posts: 256 |
posted 19 July 2001 02:33 PM
test  [This message was edited by Henry on 02 August 2001 at 10:32 AM.] |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 19 July 2001 02:48 PM
Bill F. The .010, .011, .011.5 and .012 tuned to [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 26 July 2001 at 08:38 AM.] |
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Bill Ferguson Member Posts: 1391 |
posted 19 July 2001 04:51 PM
Bill H. I don't disagree with you about new not being a guarantee, but it as least gives you a better chance. If you can get that darn 3rd. string up to pitch in the first place (which has nothing to do with a bend over the changer), chances are it will last a couple of nights. At least for me. But I know I could not stand that string to be a year or two old. It has to be DEAD. Bill |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 19 July 2001 05:43 PM
Henry, Please, you've fired up my curiousity. I would like to get more information about your steel guitar. Did you build it? How many strings? How many knee levers? What is the tuning? If you have a G#, like the E9th chromatic third string, does it break often? Thank you for any information that you can offer. On second thought, perhaps it is an illusion of a steel guitar. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 20 July 2001 at 01:48 AM.] |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 20 July 2001 08:10 AM
AMEN Bill H carl |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 20 July 2001 08:18 AM
double post sorry [This message was edited by C Dixon on 20 July 2001 at 11:35 AM.] |
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Curt Olsen Member Posts: 148 |
posted 20 July 2001 07:15 PM
I have played a D9 for years, I like the deeper sound from that tuning.I use GHS strings set up as follows: .013,.015,.012,.014,.017,.022W,.026W,.030W .034W,.036W I also change the .012 (third) after three playing jobs. ------------------ |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 21 July 2001 02:28 AM
Hi Curt, Thank you for adding spark to this thread by suggesting that there is a [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 21 July 2001 at 10:10 AM.] |
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Doug Childress Member Posts: 223 |
posted 25 July 2001 07:19 PM
I have found that if you take some very clear light synthetic grease (rod & reel) and put a thin coat on the nut rollers and the bridge under where the string touches this will reduce the friction and prolong the life of the string. I hardly ever break a G# string since using this method. |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 26 July 2001 05:26 AM
Doug, I deduce from your friction reducing [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 26 July 2001 at 05:32 AM.] [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 26 July 2001 at 08:51 AM.] |
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Doug Childress Member Posts: 223 |
posted 26 July 2001 09:17 AM
I usually put a little light clear synthetic grease under the string on each end of the neck where the string contacts the bridge and nut. This lessens the friction and gives the string extra life. I hardly ever break strings since using this method. |
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Ricky0ne1 Member Posts: 215 |
posted 26 July 2001 03:36 PM
Hmmmmm... My Mullen doesn't seem to break .011's... 'cept once when I was putting on a new set, and man did that thing smart! Could it be soft changer fingers or a bigger radius on the finger that prevents premature breakage? A question for bigger more experienced minds than my own self I reckon........ |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 27 July 2001 08:39 AM
S.G.F.M., I am currently testing the tenacity, and |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 27 July 2001 09:42 AM
Bill, If you are using old milk cartons and discarded toaster parts for your new invention I'm gonna be all ticked off ! Also you better not steal my idea to solve the transportation problem that faces pedalsteel players. Due to the weight of the pedalsteel itself and the ever increasing mass of the personal seating area carried by the well practiced steel player we cannot continue to ignore this growing problem that follows us everywhere. Even though I don't actually ever leave my room I believe I have found the solution to this vexing conundrum. I have taken a large stone and shaped it into a square. I have achieved great velocity by dropping it out the window. I believe that my invention, which I call the Bob [This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 27 July 2001 at 09:49 AM.] |
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Dave Diehl Member Posts: 213 |
posted 27 July 2001 06:13 PM
Being a mechanical engineer and understanding tension and the results of it, strings WILL break after a point of continual stressing and relieving. There is NO way to stop it. I have a ShoBud, MSA, and two Emmons and all 4 break strings anytime after 12 hours of playing. |
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