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Averting high G# breakage is a problem. (Page 1)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Averting high G# breakage is a problem. (Page 1)
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| This topic is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Averting high G# breakage is a problem. |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 04 July 2001 02:19 AM
Whenever I go out to listen to a band that features a steel guitarist, it usually includes watching the player at at some point trying to replace the high G# string in record time. Is there any solid advice amongst readers, which they have found to be helpful in averting the problem? |
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jerry wallace Member Posts: 759 |
posted 04 July 2001 02:47 AM
The only solution I have found is to change out the G# about every 12 to 15 hours of playing time..If I put a new one on monday {playing 4 hours a night}Thursday I'll put on a new one before starting playing to avoid having to change it on stage.. ------------------ |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 04 July 2001 03:40 AM
3rd strings seem to break at the most inopportune time. I don't have any magic formula but keeping fresh strings on the guitar seems to help the metal fatigue/breakage problems. But, 3rd strings seem to defy logic and I've had them break putting it on, or have one break after 1 song or have it last for a month. No pattern to it. Carl Dixon swears by the lateral movement Excel changer and that it doesn't break strings. But, I have a problem with that, as at some point metal fatigue is still going to take a toll. Constant stretching of the string, whether it is laterally or around a curve (changer finger) is eventually going to cause metal fatigue failure. |
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Gene Jones Member Posts: 5796 |
posted 04 July 2001 05:08 AM
* [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 02 May 2002 at 01:27 PM.] |
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B Cole unregistered Posts: 5796 |
posted 04 July 2001 05:10 AM
On my Fessenden I change string every 3 months and it don't break strings lucky I guess |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 04 July 2001 05:24 AM
Jerry, Isn't it an established problem that is embedded too deeply in the routine acceptance of, quote, "It goes with the playing." I don't agree with the notion one iota. What happened to the person who first uttered, "Where there is a will, there is a way?" Bill H. |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 04 July 2001 07:17 AM
It isn't just "carl dixon" that swears by the "lateral changer". Ask Bill Stafford, Tom Brumley, Al Perkins OR anyone who owns a PSG with one of these changers! They do NOT break strings. Period! My 3rd string has now been on my guitar for 15 months. I play the guitar every day. Sometimes for as much as 10 hours off and on. The guitar simply does not break strings. To prove this theory even if you do not have a lateral changer (which 99% don't), ask yourself this question? Where does the string break just about 100% of the time. You will find it is right at the very top of the changer finger. That is the point where the bend is most acute! Then ask this question. IF, the breakage was due to constant stretching of the string, how come it only breaks right at that one point? Now ponder this. IF there was NO bend in the string when it is pulled and it was simply pulled and relaxed in a straight line, would it ever prematurely break? Anapegs and Excels have proven beyond ANY shadow of a doubt that the string would not break. Even a .011! It is not the stretching of the strings that causes them to break as much as they do! It is due to the bending of the string back and forth. carl |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 04 July 2001 07:33 AM
B.Cole, Please try to remain with the original thread question. You will notice I said nothing about "strings", but I said (string). The high G# of the E9th neck. I'm aware of the fact that some players, of the minority group, refuse to change any string before it breaks. They play the wound strings until they shine, and develop a flat surface at the part that touches the bar. Another visited me with what he called Texas fur heaped up near the tuners. In other words, a pile of dust. Please check your tuner to see if your B pedal is pulling the G# note to 440. If it does, try doing a war dance on the B pedal for 45 seconds. If you don't hear a "pop" goes the weasel, you at at least know that the B pedal, and string travel are correctly adjusted. Thousands of players break the G# more or less depending on how hard they play, and how often. Bill |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 04 July 2001 08:13 AM
Come on Bill ! Stop with all the questions and tell us all about your wondorous new invention. If you have made your G# string breakage solution contraption out of old cut up milk cartons and discarded toaster parts I beat you to it. I call mine the "Sharp G Forever XL2001" and plan to start marketing it as soon as my girlfriend lets me borrow her hair dryer. Bob |
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Bob Mainwaring Member Posts: 918 |
posted 04 July 2001 09:56 AM
I took a leaf out of bobs book a while ago and have had little string breakage by using a .012" string. I change all the strings about every couple of months - the 3rd gets changed about every 3 weeks. Bob Mainwaring. Z.Bs. and other weird things. ------------------ |
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Jerry Roller Member Posts: 3906 |
posted 04 July 2001 11:14 AM
Hey guys, our friend Tony Davis in Australia has invented what he calls a "Gizmo" which will work on any guitar that uses the pin on the changer finger such as Emmons uses. this thing eliminates almost all of the bend of the string. If you contact him or he sees this he might share it with us all. He sent two of them to me and they do work when I think to use them. I think he could patent it and get someone to make them and sell a bunch of them. Jerry |
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Bill Ford Member Posts: 1724 |
posted 04 July 2001 12:18 PM
If the peg is long enough,put an old string barrel on the it and the string on top,It lessens the angle over the finger.I did that on my MSA a loooong time ago and all but stopped G# breakage. Before that I used to keep a G# cut to length and ready. Bill ------------------ [This message was edited by Bill Ford on 04 July 2001 at 12:21 PM.] |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 04 July 2001 02:08 PM
I, too, got tired of breaking .011's, so I went to .010's, and the problem disappeared. They will last for months!. Sure, the sound is a little thinner, but for me it's still a good trade-off. |
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Doug Beaumier Member Posts: 2346 |
posted 04 July 2001 03:13 PM
I've been using a .010 for the high G# for 30 years ( no... not the same one!) It usually lasts for 15 to 20 gigs. ------------------ |
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ebb Member Posts: 1045 |
posted 04 July 2001 05:15 PM
tune to d. |
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Kenny Davis Member Posts: 779 |
posted 04 July 2001 05:23 PM
If you don't have a lateral changer, .012's RULE! |
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B Cole unregistered Posts: 779 |
posted 04 July 2001 05:41 PM
Well lets see I use a 12 gauge string on thhigh G# and a 22 Wound on the 6 th G# and I still do not break any. Now I practice every day for 6 to 8 hours and that G# pedal probably goes up and down more times then the piston in you lawn mower I play every weekend and I still do not break String or strings which ever. I that is a credit to the Fessenden guitar. Now I have no idea what you play but if it breaks strings then you have to learn to live with it or but a Fessenden I am sure there are other guitars that do not break string or strings such as Carl Dixons. And if the person your watching breaks strings or string then he should either learn to live with or buy A Fessenden or if you do not choose to watch him change strings or string my advice to you would be find another band to watch that don't break strings. or you could invent something to stop the string breakage [This message was edited by B Cole on 04 July 2001 at 05:44 PM.] |
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jerry wallace Member Posts: 759 |
posted 04 July 2001 05:49 PM
Well Bill,I agree "WHERE THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY"..However, I have been playing PSG since 1970 and played just about all brands except the Excell and the Anapeg..So I cant say on these.. But I have tryed every brand of string,.010,.011,.0115 and .012..Some steels break the G# more often than others but I have never seen a coventional changer PSG that wont break them.. So although I agree with "WHERE THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY",,I also agree with "NO POINT IN BUTTING YOUR HEAD AGAINEST A BRICK WALL" I dont consider myself to give up very easily and I guess I have a reputation of being hardheaded,stubborn,a perfectionest,and one who does not like to admit defeat..But with the G# string,after 35 years of fighting this battle,I order them by the one or two dozens..I keep a rough ideal of the hours played on each one with my style and average amount of pedal action,and change it shortly before it breaks.. ------------------ [This message was edited by jerry wallace on 04 July 2001 at 05:56 PM.] |
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rayman unregistered Posts: 759 |
posted 04 July 2001 08:34 PM
Try George L red package reinforced .011's. They last twice as lomg as regulars. Irarely break one. They are reinforced at the ball end with nylon. A big difference. |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 04 July 2001 08:37 PM
My Sierra Session very rarely breaks strings. I use Jagwires. I can't even remember the last time I broke a high G# string on stage. I know that the high G# will break if I leave it on way too long (like 3 months or so). I usually change strings when the E and B stop sounding true to my ears, which is after about 6 weeks. I probably play the Sierra about 8-10 hours a week, so it's safe to say that I can easily get 60 hours of playing out of a Jagwire .011 G# string. As for the Williams, I bought it in January and have changed strings twice since. No breakage at all so far. I don't play the E9th on it a whole lot, though. Maybe 2 or 3 hours a week. I've only done a few gigs with it. So, the G# breakage problem has been solved for me by playing good instruments with good strings. ------------------ |
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B Cole unregistered Posts: 14849 |
posted 04 July 2001 08:49 PM
Thars it Bob you win the little doll without a G string or strings the answer is Play a good guitar with good strings now why didn't I think of that now I will never know if the G string or strings came off [This message was edited by B Cole on 04 July 2001 at 09:07 PM.] |
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Jody Sanders Member Posts: 2889 |
posted 04 July 2001 09:36 PM
I change the 3rd string G# usually on Tue. or Weds. depending on how many gigs I have for the week. Usually 3 0r 4 gigs. I practice 2 to 3 hrs. a day. I use Frenchy's silent series reinforced .011 gauge. So far with this system, no string breakage. Jody. |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 05 July 2001 03:07 AM
Although this is slightly off Bill's original question, the reinforced .011's have been brought up. I've got some of the GHS .011PG strings and I don't notice much difference between them and the standard .011 George L's string (may be the same string since GHS OEM's George L's strings). I don't generally break many 3rds, probably because I change strings regularly. But I can't see how reinforcing the string at the ball end is going to help. They don't break at the ball, they usually break above that at the changer curve or at the roller nut (if it's not kept lubricated) or at the tuning key. Bill, you have three potential places for the string to break, so there are three different areas to be addressed. |
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Bill C. Buntin Member Posts: 642 |
posted 05 July 2001 04:10 AM
.012's are the answer for me. No breakage and a fuller sound than the .011's. Regards |
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P Gleespen Member Posts: 751 |
posted 05 July 2001 05:35 AM
For you .012 enthusiasts, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this. How can it be that the .012 isn't breaking as much as the .011? I would've thought that it'd break more. Is it because the string breaks due to "metal fatigue", and not from too much tension? ...and if that's the case, why wouldn't the .010's that some other people use break MORE often? I'm just a bit corn-fused! |
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P Gleespen Member Posts: 751 |
posted 05 July 2001 05:40 AM
...oh and Carl, what kind of steel does Al Perkins play? An Anapeg or an Excel? [This message was edited by P Gleespen on 05 July 2001 at 05:41 AM.] |
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BobG Member Posts: 788 |
posted 05 July 2001 06:14 AM
I'm not convinced that the bend at the changer is the main culprit here. I own a Williams D10 which has the reduced angle at the changer. The angle is 45 degrees and is also equiped with a roller nut. I also have 77 emmons S10 with the traditional 90 angle bend at the changer and the nut is simply grooved steel (no roller). ... Observation: The .011 lasts twice as long on my Emmons S 10. |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 05 July 2001 06:42 AM
To those who have contributed to the post, or thread, I want to let you know how much it is appreciated. I'm amazed to find that the information which abounds in unlimited quantities, can be found here on THE STEEL GUITAR FORUM. The 3rd string problem that is a constant nuisance to those who play with the universal changer, needs deliberate resolve. Finding a device that would mechanically insure the player that the G# string is sharing the trauma, from end to end, and not at the 90 degrees curvature, in an area of approx. 1", is a thought worth considering. Bill H. |
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Jerry Gleason Member Posts: 539 |
posted 05 July 2001 11:52 AM
If the string consistantly breaks at the point where it bends around the changer finger, it seems clear that metal fatigue as a result of repeated bending in that one spot is the cause. A plain string is subject to stress from tension, and fatigue from bending. On some guitars, a .012 may last longer because radius of the changer finger versus the scale length (24" vs. 24 1/4, for example) tips the balance in favor of a string with more mass. On a different guitar with a different radius and / or scale, a more flexible string like a .010 might last longer. (Just my speculation, but what do I know...?) I used to use .012's on my guitar, and I found that while I liked the sound a little better, the longevity seemed about the same as an .011, and when the .012 broke, it did it so violently that it would startle me off my seat, or even cut me. I think that if you just determine the average life of the string, whichever guage you use, and always change it well before that time, you shouldn't have string breakage problems on stage [This message was edited by Jerry Gleason on 05 July 2001 at 05:00 PM.] |
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B Cole unregistered Posts: 539 |
posted 05 July 2001 01:45 PM
I think you will find that black guitars break less strings and have a better tone then the other colors |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick Member Posts: 1234 |
posted 05 July 2001 04:25 PM
On a serious note: I have found that if you polish the changer fingers (aluminum) with mothers Mag polish, it will cut string breakage by about 30 percent. It won't stop it, but it does lengthen the life of the string. Hope this helps. |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 06 July 2001 03:15 AM
S.G.F.M., The possibility may exist, that we are following the leaders, or masters with this unworkable E9th chromatic tuning. Unworkable, because of the lofty pitch required of the 3rd string. It could be that this tuning, which was created as a joint effort by steel guitar greats is lacking in practicality, mostly because it is unreasonable to go on believing that this is the final word, while players continue to replace the 3rd G# string on a regular basis; prematurely. I think the time has arrived for my part to experiment with a C9th chromatic tuning. I would then have removed the constant string breakage problem, or at least reduced it to a minimum. Other advantages would be the tone change, by using larger diameter strings, less cabinet drop, etc. Bill H. |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 06 July 2001 03:30 AM
The C9th tuning would be a regression back to the days of the D9th tuning, to avoid string breakage. I don't see that as a "cure" for the problem. The E9th tuning is here to stay. There is a small minority that uses something else, such as the D9th, but the overwhelming majority is E9th. If there is to be a fix - if it is really needed - it needs to be addressed with mechanical means, such as the Anapeg and Excel have done. This is not to say their way is the only way, just that some makers have redesigned their changers to help minimize the reason for most 3rd string breakage. Finally I subscribe to the laws of Edsel Murphy. |
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Bob Brocius Member Posts: 224 |
posted 06 July 2001 08:35 AM
I must agree that tension has something to do with it. For years, I never broke a .017, 5th string, on a JCH. Now my ZUM has a knee lever that pulls the 5th up 3 half steps, (just one more half step above normal), and it now breaks almost as often as the .011s. So, I now order both .011s AND .017s by the dozen. ------------------ |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 06 July 2001 09:06 AM
Bill Hankey wrote: quote:That's exactly what the Excel and Anapeg changers do! |
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richard burton Member Posts: 1337 |
posted 06 July 2001 02:14 PM
If you detune,say to C9, with the same gauge strings, OK, you won't break strings, but the tension will be so slack that the weight of the bar will increase the pitch of the strings so as to make the steel out of tune. |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 06 July 2001 04:50 PM
Richard B., Yes Richard, I'm 100% aware of the need to increase string gauges. I'm also in touch with the real world, where wisdom dictates that the masters have defeated their purposes by including a flimsy string to achieve this rare inside out tuning. The C9th chromatic would give more vibrant tones, and the G# strings would become E notes. At last a tuning that is trustworthy, in terms of basic reliability. Just the loss of blood from getting whipped by the G# breakage, not to mention the pain, should provide the precautionary move to safer pitches. As for those highs, they will register very well in the upper ranges. Bill H. |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 06 July 2001 04:55 PM
C tunings always sound too "dark" to my ears. You can have my .011 when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers!  |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick Member Posts: 1234 |
posted 06 July 2001 06:10 PM
I am GUILTY of using a D-9th. Why? I prefer the sound over the E-9th. I still use an .011 guage string for the 3rd string. I break one about every 3 months. It should have been replaced after one month. Tom Brumley has played D-9th for 40 years. I just wish I could get his tone. So in summary, it's not just because of string breakage that some folks use D-9th. For those who are interested I use the following guages: .012. .016, .011, .015. .020 Wound .024, .030, .034, .038, .040 I have no problem with excessive detuning. It does feel a little different until you get used to it. I just prefer the fatter sound. |
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Kenneth Kotsay Member Posts: 306 |
posted 06 July 2001 06:53 PM
We all been sold a two way ticket on the TITANTIC. What if, just what if the guy in the string factory was going to be laid off because of slow sales and he devised a plan not to. Now he figured a way to increase sales & production by making cheapo .011 strings. KEN [This message was edited by Kenneth Kotsay on 22 July 2001 at 04:32 PM.] |
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