"I believe God called me to preach AND to entertain people with music. There's no other explanation for why I love it so much. I didn't start playing in a band to "meet chicks" or to be popular. To be frank, it's about all I've ever wanted to do... besides being a family man and serving the Lord. I believe he gave me a gift, and wants me to use it. To quote the Eric Liddell character from Chariots of Fire "(the Lord) made me fast, and when I run (or play music) I feel His pleasure."

I believe that, when we use the talents God has given us, we honor Him. As long as the gift isn't being used to promote immorality, we always call attention to what God has done in making us and gifting us.

At points in my life (i.e. when I was serving large churches and when our girls were small) I virtually stopped playing for people, and I missed it every day. I have no regrets about prioritizing those things during that time of my life, but there wasn't a day that went by that I didn't think about playing in a band- and that I didn't miss it. I was a fish out of water.

I always played in church some, but I was never able to play the kind of music I wanted to play. It wasn't satisfying (musically speaking) for me- even playing in "praise and worship" groups didn't do it... I wasn't challenged intellectually and musically.

I spent a lot of my life struggling with this issue: What do you do when the two great loves of your life (besides the family) are ministry and "guitar picking"? It's a dilemma. Because I was pastor, the folks at church didn't think I ought to play anywhere except church! I was never sure exactly why.

Was it because there was drinking going on in clubs or at events where we might play? Well, I saw those same people from church eating in those establishments or attending those events. I couldn't quite understand the "double standard". Why was it alright for them to "suck the marrow out of life" (to quote Dead Poets' Society), but I was apparently supposed to sit around with my arms folded and look like I was weaned on a sour pickle? They would work in establishments that served alcohol, and they would eat in those places, but it wasn't alright for me to be there. They shopped at Winn-Dixie and Food Lion, and walked right by the beer cases (sometimes purchasing!). Is that not the same thing?

I wasn't promoting immorality, promiscuity, or contributing to the delinquency of minors. So what was the problem? All I wanted to do was to play my guitar with good friends and have a little fun.

After decades (literally) of this nonsense, I finally decided that there was a problem here, but it wasn't my problem. It was the problem of people who brought so much religious baggage to the table that they couldn't see what the Bible actually says and doesn't say.

Did the Lord Jesus drink wine at the wedding in Cana (and other times)? Most definitely, and it was alcoholic, not O'Doul's or "sparkling" grape juice. (I don't drink any alcohol, and have never done it... I'm just making the point).
Did he dance at that wedding? I think he did, and there's no evidence to the contrary.
Did he spend a lot of time with tax collectors and people of low estate (i.e. Friends In Low Places)? Yes, he did.
Did he whistle popular tunes ? Hard to believe that he wouldn't have done that!
Did he live life to the fullest? Absolutely- he was crucified for going against the popular social/religious mores of his day.
Are there any biblical prohibitions against playing good music with friends and entertaining people? No.
Are we encouraged to live the Abundant Life? Most definitely.

I just don't believe that God doesn't want us to have fun. It doesn't square with the Bible. I tell my parishoners... I don't play golf- this is my recreation. Most of them seem to understand that.

Those who don't (or won't) understand can kiss my foot."

Rick

------------------
Rick McDuffie
Tarheel Jazz Q-tet
Debbie Elam Band
www.tarheelmusic.com

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 21 May 2003 at 05:39 AM.]

You've spoken my feelings exactly. I've had those debates with people all my life.
I just tell those folks to remember Matthew 7:1-5 then come and talk to me about it.
I think if a musician is out there playing music and not acting like an idiot he doesn't have anything to be ashamed of.
I'll answer to GOD for my sins and transgressions on judgement day, NOT to a bunch of hypocrits here on earth.

Mike Sweeney

[This message was edited by Mike Sweeney on 21 May 2003 at 06:07 AM.]

God bless you. Best of luck with your ministry and your music.

Living in Las Vegas as a full-time musician in the early '80's, the music-director of a local church with a very good music program told me, "call me when you're not playing in casinos, clubs etc. anymore". Later in '96 I was attending Central Christian Church, a very large church there, and they didn't mind me or any of us playing out, though it was understood our behavior was expected to be appropriate as representatives of the church.

The keyboard player of the band I'm currently playing in quit the band some time ago to return to church full-time. He was wrestling with all the usual questions about playing secular music while simultaneously serving in church. Not long ago he sent us all "apology emails" for his frequently bad attitudes he'd had near the end of his time with us. I responded that I understood, have been through it myself, but one thing to remember is that God needs witnesses out everywhere in the world, not just "safe" inside the church on Wednesdays and Sundays. That's all I would add, if anything, to your statement above.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 21 May 2003 at 06:55 AM.]

I'm aware that I'm "preaching to the (wire) choir" here.

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 21 May 2003 at 06:54 AM.]

------------------
Jim Vogan
Carter D10, 8&5 with BCT
G.D. Walker Stereo Steel Combo
Bakelite Ric
Hilton volume pedal

------------------
Steel what?

I try to explain to those who do not "approve" of my outside-of-church playing in this way:

There are two roles of music for me. One is the ministry side where I use my ability in church as a contribution to the worship service and it takes priority over any other music endeavor.

The other side is the hobby side of music, where I play for my own enjoyment. Those who want me to give up my music hobby must first be willing to give up their hobbies such as hunting, golf, shopping, sports, etc. Lately, I have been so obsessed with lead guitar (I have a Kramer Striker guitar learning Van Halen riffs and using them on songs such as "Sweet Home Alabama," "Suzy Q," "Mustang Sally," etc. It is worth it just to get the shocked looks I get! ) that I have put steel practice on the back burner! I have not played golf in couple of years now. This music hobby has really taken over!

I can't help it that I sometimes get paid (even though not very much money) to do my hobby, whereas not many get paid to do their hobby such as hunt, play golf, etc.

As always, we have to work out our own salvation and we need to take heed to our conscience, if it is still working!

For me, the club scene is not the environment I want to be in, even though the girls rarely go for the steel player! (They do not know what they are missing do they! ) I realize there are different degrees of night clubs and some are very classy, but those dives are out for me.

There was a time when financial times got hard and I sold my only steel guitar (a big mistake, don't do it!) and lost all that practice/play time. Playing these side jobs has allowed me to regain the lost playing/practice time and has really helped out the chops. I really believe God gave me the chance to play those non-smoke, non-alochol jobs (Granny Grabber dances) as a way to get back what the destroyer took away when the money was tight.

quote:

---

Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

---

------------------
Frank Estes - 1978 Emmons D-10 8+7 #2441D

[This message was edited by Frank Estes on 21 May 2003 at 10:57 AM.]

I'd like to share some feelings similar
to those mentioned above.
I love playing my steel and have played
in several gospel groups over the years.
I have had the chance to play with country
bands too. I just could not commit to
playing in bars and clubs, I would not
be drinking but I just couldn't do it.
I searched for bands that would play in festivals etc. where a more family atmosphere
would be present. That never happened.

I fought this for years and knew the answer
all along. I knew to "obstain from all
appearance of evil". I had no business
going to a club where I could be tempted
to drink and cheat on my wife, thats what
I was saved from. Why go back and try to
straddle the fence. No matter how strong
in faith I was, I knew it would hurt me.

I can play country music without any
convictions, I have done studio work
for country bands, but the studio was
a controlled enviornment.

Its not my intention to cause hard feelings
with anyone, this is just my personal
opinions.

I play bass guitar on a Praise Team at
church, the music is very contemporary.
I would have a hard time fitting the
steel guitar into the mix.

Good news is, I finally found a group
that plays country gospel in churchs
and I might get to play some steel
after all.

Mozart wrote his Reqiem Mass and the Enchanted Flute at about the same time.
And a few people questioned him on that... he didn't care.
I have never seen anything saying Jesus didn't like music.
For the Rastafarians music is an integral part of worship, and is...
surpirse the same in most churches of most faiths.

Why should it be verbotin in all other places?
No reasons I can think of.
Either you are a proprietous good person in the secular world, or not.
Playing music does not autopmatically make you a sinner or a bad person.

Maybe being a good person in the presence of "sinners" will be a postive thing for them. Not the other way round.

Besides he who is without sin...

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 May 2003 at 12:44 PM.]

Getting back to the subject, several years ago I was playing in a club and a slightly drunk woman approached me. She told me her husband and only son had been killed in a car accident. She was still in mourning and would be for the rest of her life. She said that the only pleasure she got out of life was going to a bar and listening to a band play country music.

I had always thought of gigs and just that-gigs. But what we were doing made a real difference to this woman. Our music meant something to her, and helped her go on with her life despite the tragedy that had befallen her.

Like I said, I don't know if there is a God or not, but if there is, surely we were doing his work by helping this woman cope. We played secular music in a place where alcohol was being served, and by doing so, we were easing this woman's pain. I'm sure that if God exists, he would approve.

[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 21 May 2003 at 03:54 PM.]

For every sad case crying in their beer to a sad song about lost love etc.
There are several who are into the music because it helps them forget why they would be crying.
Now that to me IS a good work.

All organised religions essentially say 50-60% the same things when you get down to it.
Distilled to Mikes thoughts as a very concise version.

But it's often that other 40-50% that causes the biggest disagreements and heartaches and another 5% causes worse things still.

I'll go with the common ground anyday.
No misinterpretations from over-translation or mis-translation and what the Ceasar of any giving age and place, allowed to pass into the future. Or what a believer was lucky enough to hide from that Caeser.

King James, Mahatma, Yahwe, Haille, Cromwell, Charles VI, Urban etc...
I won't say any one got it 100% right.

And please no one interpret this as a critique or reproach to your personal faith
or philosophy of life... IT IS NOT.

But guess what there is one common thread in all those lives ;
Music for the people around them.
No change of language needed.
How much a unifing thing is that.

Play music for anyone who likes it.
Any one who doesn't.. well it's their lookout.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 May 2003 at 03:41 PM.]

If we do believe that God is Almighty Creator of the Universe, why do so many professing this, tend to treat him as a simpleton? I'm certain that God sees this as an insult.

Many of the clergy are actors, pure and simple. I would never trust the word of anyone professing to be a minister without reading for myself to see what the hyperbole of the Hebrew (Old Testement), or the Greek (New Testement) is saying to me personally. However, in some instances, I have arrived at the same answer for myself, as my minister has so professed.

With enough study you will know what is excess.

Rick

2. Quote "I believe he gave me a gift, and wants me to use it." He did give you a gift and he wants you to use for him. Cast not your pearls before the swine.

3. Quote "As long as the gift isn't being used to promote immorality." I played the bars/clubs before I was saved and I know from experiance that the only reason the bands are there is to lure people in to drink and spend money and that leads to all kinds of immorality. God didn't call you to preach and to bring people into his kingdom on sunday only to lead them into the bars on friday and saturday nights. A pastor is the shepherd over the flock and his job is to set an example and to lead them into safety and out of harms way. In the Lords prayer it even says LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION, BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL. You can't serve two masters, for you will love one and hate the other. Man cannot serve God and mammon at the same time.

4. Quote. "I have no regrets about prioritizing those things during that time of my life, but there wasn't a day that went by that I didn't think about playing in a band- and that I didn't miss it. I was a fish out of water." God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Any man that takes hold of the plow and looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God.

5. Quote. "Because I was pastor, the folks at church didn't think I ought to play anywhere except church! I was never sure exactly why." The apostle Paul said "if by eating meat offends my weak brother then I will not eat meat".

6. Quote "Was it because there was drinking going on in clubs or at events where we might play? Well, I saw those same people from church eating in those establishments or attending those events. I couldn't quite understand the "double standard". Why was it alright for them to "suck the marrow out of life" (to quote Dead Poets' Society), but I was apparently supposed to sit around with my arms folded and look like I was weaned on a sour pickle? They would work in establishments that served alcohol, and they would eat in those places, but it wasn't alright for me to be there. They shopped at Winn-Dixie and Food Lion, and walked right by the beer cases (sometimes purchasing!). Is that not the same thing?" The Bible tells us not to partake in another mans sin. Because someone else does something questionable doesn't give us the right to do the same thing. We will all answer to God for all the things we do wheather good or bad.

7. Quote "I wasn't promoting immorality, promiscuity, or contributing to the delinquency of minors. So what was the problem?" By partaking in it you are promoting it. See answer #3.

8. Quote. "Did the Lord Jesus drink wine at the wedding in Cana (and other times)?" The Bible says that Jesus turned the water into wine. That was to show a taste of his power. It does not say or incenuate that he drank it.

9. Quote " Did he spend a lot of time with tax collectors and people of low estate (i.e. Friends In Low Places)?" He went in to them to save them not to party with them.

10. Quote. "he was crucified for going against the popular social/religious mores of his day." He came against the distorted and corrupted religious hypocrites that had a "better than thou" attitude.

11. Quote. "Are there any biblical prohibitions against playing good music with friends and entertaining people? In the book of Psalms it says to praise Him on all the different instruments. David played his harp to soothe Saul.

12. Quote "I just don't believe that God doesn't want us to have fun." I believe that God does want us to have fun. Good clean fun. I have had more fun since I have been saved that I ever had in the worldly way. A line from a song God gave me "Don't look back at what you've done, When you thought you were having fun, With the pleasures of this world, While you were dying more each day".

13. Quote. "Most of them seem to understand that" Does God understand that? Gods ways are not our ways. There is a way that seems right to man, but it's end is destruction.

14. Quote. "Those who don't (or won't) understand can kiss my foot." Does that mean that God can kiss your foot too? That is not a very good attitude for a pastor to have. It brings reproch upon the church. Satan rejoices in those kinds of things. That is telling the lost world that you are not a happy christian.
It sounds like God might be dealing with you to quit playing for the devil and you are trying to justify it by trying to soothe your conscience.
The world and non christians here on the Forum or anywhere else don't have the answer. Only God and His Word has the true answer.
Rick I am not trying to judge you, for I am a long way from being perfect. Sometimes I feel like Paul, I feel like I am the cheif among sinners. I will be praying for you that you would make the right decisions. You can email anytime. Your Brother in Christ, Larry Cole

------------------
Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12, SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60

------------------
Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12, SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60

Galatians 5:1-5
"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."

------------------
Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12, SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60

Rick

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 22 May 2003 at 06:12 AM.]

It sounds as though you think the hobby side of music is not valid because it is not "praising the Lord."

I would simply respond with these thoughts:

1) Having sex with your own wife is not exactly praising God, but it is completely legal, proper and good according to God's law and not just for pro-creation.

2) Watching a sit-com (that is not filthy) does not give praise to God, but does that make it wrong? (I still love the old B/W Andy Griffith shows).

3) Eating dessert does not give glory to God and in fact, is harming the temple of the Holy Ghost (your body) with all that sugar. So, will that one piece of cake take you to Hell?

I could go on and on with plenty of examples and of course, anything that is good can be made wrong by exceeding moderation.

Larry, it is too easy to become a harsh critic to the point of being unrealistic and it really makes one's testimony ineffective. Never compromise on sin, but don't pretend to no longer be human either!

I flew him over to Paris to marry me with a local catholic priest to make my wife's family happy too.
6 hours before he got here another plane blew up off Long Island, Flight 800 (or 400).

Rev. Phil was invited to participate in the Paris memorial service for the victims.
But that was happening after the wedding.
We all had some fine red wine with dinner, Phil very much enjoyed it. He was not drunk, no one was.
I played with the jazz band so did my bestman. Phil danced with my new mother in law. We all laughed and had a great time trying to understand everyones funny accents.

Was he sinning... Not in my opinion.
Is a he a reverent man of god and a good paster... most certainly he is.

Was he being bad in dancing with a married woman. No he just married her daughter and SHE asked him for the dance. And her husband a VERY religeous man watched with a smile on his face.
My inlaws have been to Lourdes several times and prayed for me and my wife there. This I call very devout christianity.

Should Rev. Phil have not enjoyed the evening, the music and the dancing for proprieties sake.
Not on your tintype.

Did the bishop of Paris think any less of him and berate him for acting un-godly... no,
he asked him if he had a good time at the wedding. They discussed it at length.
Then they went and celebrated a mass for the flight victims. And we went to lunch with him after.

If anyone says this paster has done wrong I will not believe you.

Drunken-ness and wanton carnality are sins...
Having a glass of wine and dancing to good music are not.
And you will never convince me otherwise.

To the point if Rev. Rick wants to play music and doesn't allow temptations to get the better of him.
That is between him and God, not him and anyone on earth. And I'm sure Phil would like to listen to him do it too.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 May 2003 at 08:55 AM.]

I don't doubt you are dealing with some pressure from the Bible Belt and because I've lived in it for most of my life, I do understand.

A lot has been printed, said and sung about WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) over the last number of years. Like some others, I do not believe that, if He were walking among us now, He would be hanging out at the local First Baptist, Church of Christ or other organized churches. I believe He'd be at pub's, casinos, dance halls and any other place that people in need would be. On further thought, He probably WOULD be hanging out at some churches as well as many of them have as much human drama, character and short-comings as any bar might have....they just hide it better.

It's been said in these posts already, but I believe also that it comes down to our personal convictions based on our personal knowledge and relationship with Him...not the pressure placed on us necessarily by others. A lot of terrible things were said about Jesus when he walked among thieves and whores but He knew His heart and kept His purpose clear.

Rick, I believe that you or anyone else should go with what you feel is right for you and then be forgiving enough to allow others to feel the worst if they must. The gospel police were not created by Jesus but by man. Nuff said, now go kick some musical butt!

I was married to a minister for 25 years. I am an ordained minister myself. I served God by singing & teaching in church most of my life. After my divorce, I felt my musical life was over...since that was the only expression I'd known. When Miguel and I were divinely brought together & married, he had a wonderful vision of making "new" music together. I say new, because our musical history was with my 2 Contemporary Christian projects.

Now, we have many doors open to us to provide entertainment for secular audiences. We've recently been asked to include "gospel" songs to some of our shows. This has sparked a "revival" (sorry, couldn't resist) of our Christian music...that we co-wrote together over 10 years ago.

I was recently offered an opportunity to join a church staff as Minister of Music. Although honored, I was reminded that God had done so much to get music He wrote thru me to an audience of unchurched listeners. Why would I put my talent back under a bushel?

Rick...I feel when God opens a door His Annointing and hand go with us no matter what type of music we play. The Bible says in Micah 6:8..."this is what is good, do justly, love mercy...and walk humbly with God." If we keep our heart right and walk where He tells us...it could take us to some amazing places, it sure did HIM!!

Thanks for listening!!

Let the peace of God RULE!!!

T.

[This message was edited by Miguel e Smith on 22 May 2003 at 11:43 AM.]