I've know Wayne for years. He is a straight shooter whose word is gold. I've known Crowbear, only thru this Forum, but for many years too. He's always been a good guy.

Curious minds want to know.

[This message was edited by Peter on 21 November 2004 at 07:42 AM.]

quote:

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Hi Wayne – Crowbear from France & the Forum kallin’ in on you
I just spent today at Victor Denancé’s house to help him out w: that MSA you sold him
I would like to ask you : in all honesty do you consider you sold him a playable guitar ?
Was there anything wrong w: it or was it a steel that he could immediately get behind & play ?
Thanx for your reply
--------------------------------------------
1st off is this going to be a vulger email...you bet...
look you little **** i was out of town and from what i've been able to discover you gave me under one day to respond to these accusations.
you never even told me what wrong with the guitar you just assumed i sold victor a piece of junk and then without waiting for my reply then you posted on the forum that i screwed victor...trust me if i was closer to you right now we would be dancing in a parking lot for that.
the guitar worked fine when it left here...if victor has a problem with the guitar he can send it back and i'll fix it.
as for you i don't think you know your ass from a hole in the ground and you shouldn't have even touched it.
as i said before i'm more than willing to fix the problems with the guitar...i stand behind my work.
you really sickin me you don't give anybody a chance you just nail them to the cross in less than 24hrs

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i maintain that the MSA Victor recieved was estheticaly quite decent but unplayable w: the pedals & levers -
Victor did NOT try to adjust anything because he does'nt know a thing about it.
he's been on my case for over a month so i could help him get it straight.
when i tried it, before doin' anything to it, i noticed that all the pulls and lowers were endless and had no stops.
the pedals were so low to the floor that it looked like the floor was set to be the pedal stop.
each nylon tuner demand a tremendous amount of pressure just to turn them a 1/2 turn !
pedals A&B are the only ones Victor managed to get some use out of.
the C6 pedals are all unplayable
LKL is totally worn on it's axle and does'nt move anything - the thread that tightens the lever is shot.
i'm sorry to say that this steel is NOT in decent shape and does'nt permit to get playin' from the git.
this steel is the bad apple i'm reffering to, not Wayne
i do not assume,but rather i am convinced, that Victor got a funky horn.
i expect Victor to jump in here & help things along.
ps: Joey, we know each other from ebay too, i believe
(in good that is)

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 21 November 2004 at 04:38 PM.]

I am the "proud" owner of the MSA.

I was shopping for my first steel around late january 2004, so I posted a WTB ad on this forum.
The fellow forumite Wayne Brown from Calgary told me he could sell me MSA D10 for 1200Eur (1800 Cad$), ground shipping included. He told me too that the guitar was not playable yet and he will restore it to like new condition.
I found that offer very fair and sent him the money mid february.

I had to wait several month before I could get the guitar. I didn't mind waiting so long because I was confident that Wayne was doing a good job.

I received the guitar last july, and was impressed how good it looked : no bar dings, shiny metal parts, good quality cases, new strings...
But I really couldn't play it.
Only one knee lever was working properly.
The A and B pedals were fine after a little adjustement, but most of the 6 ohers weren't working properly.

As you know I'm a very beginner and don't know much about steel, and even less about stell mechanism. I just thought an experienced steeler could fix all that problems and make it work fine.

I've had the pleasure to meet James "Crowbear" Schmidt yesterday.
This gentleman spent at least 5 hours trying to make my MSA work properly.
But there were way too much problems.
It's a better guitar now that he put his hand in the mechanism but it's not a "working" guitar. The C6th neck is almost unusable, and there is still a non working lever (it's not even attached on his axle). The 3 other levers are really hard to push on and have no stop.

I've tried his Zum D10 and now know how far is my MSA from a good (I mean properly working) guitar.

BTW, I must say that I've NEVER touched the inside mechanism. All I've done is turning the keyheads and tuning the A and B pedals with the Geaorge L Hex screw.

It seems that Wayne Brown is a trustworthy man and that his pac seats are good.
But I feel cheated about the guitar, and wouldn't trust him again.

Thanks for reading,

Cheers.

[This message was edited by Victor Denance on 21 November 2004 at 08:26 AM.]

Good Luck!
------------------
Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;
Internationally Accredited 3D Animation Academy

[This message was edited by Peter on 21 November 2004 at 08:40 AM.]

You understand it would be way too expensie to send you the guitar to fix it, then send it back again.
I would be OK for a complete refund, including all the shipping charges.
So please let me know, and resolve that quickly.

Vic

Db

------------------

"Promat"
~when tone matters~

There aren't that many ways to make money easily.

I sold a $500 Harley Magneto to a guy in NYC for 200$ He had to get a hundred buck replacement magnet for it. I didn't know it was bad, and wouldn't sell him a 500$ mag for 100$ minus shipping. Now I'll never sell another harley part either.

I hope it works out.

Sounds like the kid did his part.

Email AYP.

EJL

I work very hard for my money. At the end of a forty hour week I make 600$ and 100$ in benefits. At that point, if I haven't done anything negligent in the process, ( which I CAN get sued for personally) I can know that there isn't a party on god's earth that can say I didn't earn it. My music playing is the same way.

You start selling things that have complex mechanisms, or fixing things that are easily only half fixed due to the condition of the piece, with no negligence involved, and especially do so overseas, where it's really hard to get any problems solved, all of a sudden you can easily have lost money on the deal. Or you must decide whether refusing to lose as much money as you stood to gain will go against your own business ethics, or if you ignore it, hoping the problem will "go away" you stand to lose twice the business due to the communication of the situation to prospective customers.

My harley part metaphor was to show that due to circumstances I was not aware of, I could have easily been brow beaten into giving somebody a 500$ magneto for a hundred bucks when not having a perfect magnet in it only made it worth 400$. The guy in NY aquiesced, because it just wasn't the "fat hog" he thought it was. He let me "off the hook", and was happy with it. It made me glad I don't do it anymore.

It's all very complicated, and if you didn't understand my relation of my experiences, then, with no offense intended, I doubt very much if you'd understand the problems involved with selling complex mechanisms.

What I understand of it, it's not for me. You can easily lose as much money as you thought you were gaining.

I go for the 600$ a week, and play on weekends for extra money.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 21 November 2004 at 01:54 PM.]

quote:

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...it's a useless piece of junk...

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Having never even see the guitar in question, let me make the following statement...

Oh, how I wish I'd had something that good when I started.

I wish I were closer. I could fix that guitar, and make it very "playable" in a few hours. (So could anyone else with a good knowledge it's workings.) It's not rocket science, just simple mechanics, but sometimes I forget how intimidating a pedal steel is (mechanically) to someone who is unexperienced in such matters. No, it'll never be like a new Zum (which has "helper springs", and other new gizmos), but I'm sure it can be made quite playable. Someone might sit down at my old MSA (with it's bent rods and stiff action), and say..."It's junk", too. I doubt there's one around that's been played more than mine. But I can still make it "talk", and it's still better than a lot of 'em I've played throughout the years!

Now, back to the axe in question...

Rather than ship the thing half-way around the world to correct a supposed "problem", I'd suggest finding someone [i]over there who has a little experience with setting up a steel, pay him a few bucks, and get on with life. There's gotta be someone within a day's drive who could help you. Take a ride, meet a new friend. It'll help you (and your guitar) more than you know.

I know that on this side of the pond, I'd help anyone who came to me.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 21 November 2004 at 03:21 PM.]

I just found that over the years, I'm best leaving those kind of deals to people that are willing to do them.

I do agree that if it can be fixed there and possibly the seller will cop to the cost if reasonable it'd be better than to do all the shipping, customs, etc nightmare two more times. If he won't, then it's just the cheapest way to get a guitar that works.

Anyhow. By the time too many people pile in, I must say that there are few easy ways to make money, and a zillion ways to lose it.

Thanks for the read Jack. Like I said, I think we're both on the same page. Literally I guess.

quote:

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the best thing when buying guitars in USA from Europe is, use a dealer.Even then it`s not a 100% but you have better chanse to get what you paid for and without waiting for months.

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quote:

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Damir is right. If you are an overseas buyer and have no connections in the US, buy from a dealer. Bobbe Seymour, Danny Hullihen, Scotty etc. All these guys are great and will bend over backwards to help with the best deal possible.

---

These 2 posts are somewhat correct as far as they go.

We recommend you deal with a REPUTABLE firm be it a dealer or a manufacturer.

We sell new new and used guitars overseas all the time and don't have problems. Many of our fellow builders also do this without problems. I don't think I would limit myself to just dealers in the hopes that I wouldn't get "screwed" on a purchase.

------------------
John Fabian
Carter Steel Guitars

where are the stops on a old MSA ?
when i push some of the pedals they go so far that the aluminium cylinder next to the nylon tuner slips past the endplate, gets stuck and does'nt return properly.
the same applies to some of the levers too.
5 of the 8 barrels (?) that permit the adjustment of the height of the pedals are extremly hard to turn (worn threads ?) the other 3 can be easily turned by hand -
not 1 nylon tuner turns easy - takes a heck of an effort to move them
(big deal ! change 'em ! no sweat )
LKL pedal bracket does'nt hold on to the shaft since the thread which permits it's tightening is shot -
Bellcranks & rods are fine- no complaint
all knee levers are hard to move

Thanx b0b & Donny, i agree that this guitar can be fixed & that parts can be gotten from Wayne or others here
Victor's callin' the shots, it's his guitar
i can only suggest or recommend...

as much as i have dealt with dealers and uphold them, i have also dealt w: Fo'bros here and also uphold them.
so far i never had a bad deal or problem from either

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 21 November 2004 at 04:30 PM.]

quote:

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Some private sellers seem prone to exaggeration when advertising their instruments, ie " mint showroom conditon"

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When you buy a Steel on the forum you should ask for pictures.Not only from the up,front and backside.You should ask for pictures that show the bottom.Then.....if you have someone that you can trust,you could ask him or her for his or hers opinion.
That way you can be sure for 99% that you are buying a good steel.

But IMO buying from a respectable and honest dealer is the right way to purchase a good steel.

Crowbear.

Conclusion is that this steel is not worth much?At least in the state it is in right now.I think that there are many people on the forum that are willing to help Victor out with this MSA.I don't believe that Wayne Brown is such a bad guy that he will not cover some of the costs.I think he deserves a chance to prove that.

Victor.

I would go for a complete repair of the Steel.
Maybe Crowbear can do it.If he can't,there will be other forumites that can.I would not send it back to the U.S or Canada for this though.The costs for this are way to high.Unless the seller of this instrument must be willing to cover the bill.
Maybe you can find a builder or dealer in Europe that can fix this problem for you.

Wayne Link from linkon guitars can provide you with the necessary parts if you need them.And the guy is cheap.clickhere

However I can understand that you lost faith in this steel.In that case you have to sell it to a forumite that can do something with it.Maybe selling it for parts can reimburse you a little.
Maybe somebody that has got a steel for sale can give you a partial deal on a good PSG.There are some fine dealers in Europe.

My advice

I would give those dealers a call first before you continue your quest on the forum.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

[This message was edited by Ronald Steenwijk on 22 November 2004 at 06:53 AM.]

In early April, 2004, I was in the Nashville, TN area and visited the dealer in Hendersonville, TN. He is a very nice, personable and likeable man but, 4 times I tried to tell him about my problems and 4 times he changed the subject, even playing for me and giving me some free video tapes on how to adjust and maintain the all pull PSG and beginning playing methods.

My problem with shipping is slightly similar to yours except, I am 1400 + miles from central Tennessee and you seem to be 3300 + plus miles from central Canada. I paid about $50 USD to ship and insure the guitar when it was purchased but returning it to Tennessee and back will surely be costly for me.

I know your feelings of disappointment, in buying something, supposedly in working order only to find it contains severely worn parts and was not properly adjusted. (My LKL, actually hits a stop before trying to pull the changer rod).

I am sure your disappointment with a faulty instrument has taken away the fun from playing and probably it will effect your desire and motivation to learn. Very possibly, you will never like this guitar, regardless of future work and adjustments.

Fortunately for me, there are at least 3 excellent and highly reputable places here in the US who rebuild PSG's. I know of one in Texas, one in California and a fine group in Missouri and possibly others.

There is a drawing which shows the small screws that are the pedal stops. If they are not missing, you should be able to adjust them. You will need the correct size Allen wrench, which may be hard to fine in France.

The nylon tuning nuts may have been turned in all the way while trying to compensate for the incorrect travel adjustment. That would make them hard to turn. I would back them out, to a mid point in the adjustment, then re-set the travel adjustment. Then fine tune with the nylon tuners.

The lever with the bad screw, maybe you can have it drilled out slightly and a larger thread tapped for a larger screw. I don't think these are really major problems, but they will require time and patience to get them right.

Tinkering with a pedal steel may not be fun, but it's good to learn how it works. Good luck, hope this helps.

[This message was edited by Bill Moore on 22 November 2004 at 06:18 AM.]

Ron, Thanx for the link to Wayne Link
in due time i'll look him up

Bill M, Thanx for your tips
i looked at Carter's MSA manual
quite handy
EDITED: there are 4 pedal stop adjustment screws missing
i had already figured out boring another thread on the lever bracket
why i've even got the bores to do it
yes, i have US size allen wrenches too

i plan on detailing what parts are needed once i get back to Victor's crib

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 22 November 2004 at 09:38 AM.]

I know buying from a good dealer would have been a better choice, though more expensive, but I had trust Wayne, because he is a forumite, and is running a respectable business in the psg world.
But obviously he don't care for overseas customers.

The guitar IS fixable, but the deal was that I'd get a good playing guitar.
I know a steel is no rocket science, but it's really a pain that I have to get parts from overseas, pay for them, and install them. It's much time and money, and I would have liked better to use this time for playing, and this money for funnier stuff.

I love this instrument and this bad deal won't make me quit training and playing, but it's not a way to welcome a rookie.

lastly...to this date i do not know what's wrong with the guitar...i only know whats been said here on this forum.. (and i don't trust your word at all)

to this date i have not heard via email or other wise from victor personally asking to help solve this problem (not on a public forum) once again this concerns victor and me no one else

quote:

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".you just slamed me. and as usual all the hens on this forum had to start cackling and put in there 2 cents worth which it was none of there business anyways" - Wayne Brown

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I feel a bit insulted by that remark. I was the first one that replied, and I defended you.

But like you said:

quote:

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"people will only read what they want anyways"

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In the original post, Crowbear did not mention any names. I would have never guessed who it was. I suspected another guy, who has been accused, by many, for non-deliverly of parts.

Victor, if you don't want to deal with Wayne anymore, feel free to post in the Pedal Steel section to get help fixing your guitar.

Wayne, you outed yourself. Crowbear withheld your name until you took responsibility. You must have known that there would be negative responses.

I'm closing this topic.