I would personally prefer the 5th on top, mainly because I mostly play dobro, and that's what I know (whatever it is that I know). Even though we approach steel differently, or should, I need to stay familiar with what I'm used to. I would say that most acoustic steel players are also used to the major triad on top.

If only having 6 strings, I would lower the B (6th string) by a half tone. That would give me a nice minor 6th on the bottom, and the maj6 on top, as well as the Em7 on top. If you can choke that E up to an F, you have a full dom7 and a Gm7. All this before you even slant the bar.

Tony, I will bring a dobro with this tuning next week so that we can really look at it.

Come to think of it, I could probably use a little lighter gauge strings for 6, 5, & 4. I believe that way, I could have a standard G tuning, but be able to tune the low G to Bb, the B up to D, then the D to E.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 19 February 2006 at 12:24 PM.]

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Tony, I will bring a dobro with this tuning next week so that we can really look at it.

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[This message was edited by Tony Palmer on 19 February 2006 at 12:47 PM.]

Howard R....Great point....those who play DoBro can easily relate to the importance of the 5th interval by removing or covering the 1st string and then trying to play their favorite songs, which were easy to play when the 5th was on top.

Also those who play pedal steel may experience something similar by removing or covering the 1st string on C6th, and trying to play the melody to their favorite songs without using pedals and only using the top 6 or 8 strings.

All of us can look forward to seeing posts made by those who try removing the top string. It will make for interesting reading.

Tony P....Great idea, please bring your DoBro as well.

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I feel you can't go for what's the most convenient. You have to go for the sound, the melodic continuity, the sweep into and out of each note.

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Ye post is read an' fully understood, me hearty.....

I do know what you speak of and I do also agree.

My first tuning, back in the day, was

1. D
2. A
3. F#
4. D
5. A
6. D

I played, blues, country rock, & rock. Whenever I wanted to end up on the root note of the chord I was playing, on the high end of the scale, I merely played the 1st string in a straight bar position on that fret. Easy, comfortable, and I could get home with my eyes closed. The 1 on top.

Then, I discovered bluegrass and had to adapt to the G tuning with the 5 on top. Now, I had to slide, hop, and find my way six frets from home base when I wanted to land on that same note that was right under my bar on the D tuning.

Well, at first I didn't like that. Then I became used to it, and then I began to use it to my advantage by using my bar hand to make the transition either smoother, choppier, or to obtain whatever sound I wanted to get. Now, it would be difficult to go back to having the 1 on top. Although I would have the original advantage of a safety net among other musical advantages, I would not have the advantages that I gained with the 5 on top.

Now of course that relates to having the 3 on top as opposed to the 5, but since I play mostly acoustic steel and this is where I'm strongest, this is where I'll stay. Personally I think I'm better off learning more and progressing on whatever strength I have, instead of having to un-learn and then re-learn. It's always a give & take regardless of how many strings, necks, pedals, & levers are available. Play what you have.....well.

Tony, I strung up a Dobro....

1. D
2. B
3. G
4. E
5. D
6. Bb

I think we'll have some major (and minor) fun with this.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 20 February 2006 at 01:53 PM.]

Now, substitute the name "Reece" for "Jerry Byrd" in that paragraph, and I think you'll find the same thing. Reece wasn't putting down Jerry Byrd's choices anywhere that I read.

The musical approaches to playing different styles are different.

Jerry Byrd did not choose to be an "improvisor on standard chord changes" as a jazz player would be recognized. He chose to play melody, and of course he used those melodies for improvisation, but the improvisation was derived first and foremost from the melody of the composition. (Yes, I have heard the Stringduster's sides with "Sweet Georgia Brown", but that was not an avenue JB seemed to pursue wholeheartly IMHO).

All improvisors strive to be melodic; when one plays a jazz improvisation, they are creating a new melody based on the chord changesof the composition (when they aren't playing melodic variations). It is a different kind of challenge from playing variations on the tune's melody.

Great melodic/harmonic improvisations are not easy to come by, and it is a great challenge to play jazz solos with heart and soul.

Many here would argue that melodic variation is the only true path, and everything else is BS. Like much criticism, this could be because they don't have the ability to leave the melody and come up with something equally good IMHO.

Great melodic variations are not easy to come by, and it is a great challenge to play great variations with heart and soul.

There is no one tuning or approach to playing that suits everyone, or that everyone MUST follow. Jerry Byrd was fantastic, deep and expressive at what he did. However, I wouldn't expect to hear the kind of amazing jazz harmonic sense coming from him that I would hear from Reece and other great jazz steel players (sorry to pigeonhole Reece as a "jazz player"!). That is not a putdown of JB- it is just a different style of music. Not better or worse!

If someone thinks music began and ended with JB, that's fine too. Just realize that it is all the realm of opinion. There's only two kinds of music, as Duke Ellington said- good and bad. Whatever you love is the good kind!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 20 February 2006 at 02:24 PM.]

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Reece wasn't putting down Jerry Byrd's choices anywhere that I read.

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I said :

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But I'm sure not going to sit back ...
and let you use my "meager" views ... to make Jerry Byrd's tuning, style or choice of string number ...

Appear substandard ...

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Substandard = Deficient; Lacking; Inferior

I don't know John ... maybe it was "this" that gave me that idea ...

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In essence the "G" or the "E" on top may appear to some to be subjective, therefore a matter of personal preference.

I personally prefer the melodic positioning advantage of the 5th interval "G" were I to be playing a 6 string steel guitar.

My question then becomes, why not have the musical advantage of BOTH, which will reveal even more musical possibilities.

In other words, why not consider an 8 string which would provide the 5th interval for melodic positioning,....AND the root in the bass,.... AND another 6th interval in the bass. Having the 6th interval in the bass will provide (among other advantages) the opportunity to play a diminish in the bass.

If the 8 string provides more musical and positioning possibilities, some may ask why I play a 12 string? I provided the answer when I described the difference between the 6 and the 8 string.....

The 12 string provides far more than twice the musical advantages than that of a 6 string, and it does so not only because of the number of additional strings, but the positions created by additional strings when considering altered intervals and bar slants.

With this concept in mind I would pose the question,....... if one were to consider playing a piano, would they buy one with half the notes on it?

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And ...

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Rick A....The substance being....if one has enough strings to have Jerry Byrd's tuning, AND have the 5th on top, would you not consider that as being a musical advantage!

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Twice the Musical Advantage ... hmmmm ...

I'm sorry ... that certainly seems to say:

Substandard = Deficient; Lacking; Inferior

Anyone up for a 24 stringer ...

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If you want to keep the E on top because JB said so, that's fine... I also respect JB and love his playing; I don't think he invented music or is the ultimate last word in music, although he was a giant, a pioneer of the steel guitar. The idea that he put across "if there was a better way, don't you think i would have thought of it!?!" in his lessons strikes me as being a touch pedantic, as great as he was as a player...he earned the right to say it because that's how he felt- but does that mean the evolution of the instrument stopped when he died?

Because his ideas worked for him doesn't mean he inflicted that upon everyone else- wasn't he a Curly Chalker fan? Heck, he might have been a Reece fan too!

Many players think "if it was good enough for JB..." and right on to that! Many other players are taking other avenues musically, following their musical instincts. Not all steel playing needs to meet the JB criteria for p'tah and seemless melody playing along the length of the string.

There's only two kinds of music, bad music and my music. Just kidding!!!!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 20 February 2006 at 03:13 PM.]

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If you want to keep the E on top because JB said so, that's fine

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Because his ideas worked for him doesn't mean he inflicted that upon everyone else

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Not all steel playing needs to meet the JB criteria for p'tah and seemless melody playing along the length of the string.

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I seem to remember these same sorta remarks ... directed at me ... when I first started posting here ...

Come full circle ... I guess ...

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[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 20 February 2006 at 03:50 PM.]

Learn the best, from the best, incorporate it into your playing and learning, and derive your own voice from what you have gleaned.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

I quote The Murph: "I tune all the strings on my 24-string console to 'E.' It cuts down on bar movement."

Murphey would then insert a

I believe it's not the arrow, it's the Indian.

BTW, I've been using the DBGDEB tuning on dobro for about 5 years. It's wonderful for country and non-trad-bluegrass dobro.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 20 February 2006 at 06:03 PM.]

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DBGDEB

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BTW, Murphey's last C6 tuning had a G on top.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 21 February 2006 at 07:30 AM.]

I presume the 24 stringer is a double 12. ¿Right?

I must admit that if I go 14 PSG (extra chromatic string and two diffferent bass strings) then I would be looking for a 14 string lap steel too.

¿Will we never stop wanting more?

Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain

Come on guys. Do we really need more than 8 strings on a neck? (personally I don't think you need more than 6).

More strings are more complexity, more things to think about while you are playing, more things to get in the way between your real-time musical emotions and the sound coming out of your hands. Yeah, yeah you can argue that if you practice long enough these things become natural and you don't have to think about them.

More strings work great on paper, looks good on the white board and is a music theory lover's dream. More strings won't make you a better player.

You can argue that more strings give you more tonal options and chord choices. Well, if you want that then play the pedal steel or pipe organ.

I feel one of the reasons we play non-pedal steel and the thing that attracts us to the instrument is it's simplicity of tone and honest immediacy.

Look at players like Sol Hoopii and Django Reinhardt. I doubt 24 strings would make them 4 times better.

Think about it, In the real-time music world, I'm talking playing a song up to speed with a band with the chords quickly flying by, do you really want to spend your time thinking scales, modes, chord grips, string combinations for 12-15 strings? The combinations boggle the mind. Too much INFORMATION!!!

Or do you just want to sing?

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

When I play by myself, I find that I really need the extra low strings of the uni for jazz and classical bass lines. But when I play with a group, they are pretty useless, because anything I play down there is lost in the mix. On the other hand, with blues and rock, I use the low strings for doing rhythm work. So it all depends on the type of music you play, and whether you play alone or with a group. But I am also for variety, experimentation and freedom. So I wouldn't want to say anything to discourage those who want to work with lots of strings. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

with regard to this G6 equivalent of the C6

1. D
2. B
3. G
4. E
5. D
6. Bb

I have lowered the (6th string) B to Bb.

Since a Maj6 in one key, has the same notes (in different order) as a m7 in another key, does this change make sense, or is it redundant?

Jeff, "Steel Playing Texas Swing" Maurice Anderson, available through the forum catalog.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 21 February 2006 at 09:52 AM.]

Not meaning to spoil the fun for anyone, just felt like adding my 2 kroner.....

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

The music is there to enjoy and I choose, as an aspiring musician, not to limit my playing field.

It's a choice just like what set of notes to play next. No big deal just enjoy!

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playing his heart out on a one-string, Chinese violin.

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Am I suppose to be thinking about how Jesse Pearson will respond to my PERSONAL OPINION whenever I post a PERSONAL OPINION on something. That's pretty presumptuous.

Come on, man. It's my PERSONAL OPINION.

Some people like cheese pizza. Others like a nice veal chop.

And I'm not a prima donna. I'm more of cross between Louis Prima and Donna Reed.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 21 February 2006 at 12:57 PM.]

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

I also play Cajun accordion. A Cajun accordion is basically a diatonic harmonica with bellows. 10 buttons for the right hand. Each button plays two notes. One note when you pull the bellows, a different note when you push, just like blowing and drawing on a harmonica.

When the keyboard accordion was invented about a 100 years or so ago (I think). Everyone thought the Cajun Accordion was dead. With the keyboard accordion you have a full chromatic piano-like scale and keyboard and the same note on a pull or push of the bellows.

Everyone predicted the demise of the Cajun accordion. Why play such a primitive instrument where you have to work so hard? You can't play many of the melody notes on the Cajun accordion because of it's diatonic tuning. And sometimes the note you need is on a push when you are pulling, bummer, got to use a different note. The Cajun players had to find creative rhythmic as well as melodic lines to get their point across and they did so beautifully.

A very similar situation exists on the six string lap-steel vs. the pedal steel. Or just adding more and more strings to a six.

The Cajun Accordion did not die. In fact for many types of Cajun music a keyboard accordion just sounds wrong. The keyboard accordion sounds too "clean" and too "perfect". Not enough dirt.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 21 February 2006 at 01:24 PM.]

There is absolutely no sarcasm in the above remark. It is in the way the you say it and I am saying it very nicely.

I am enjoying the discussion.

At least it is not a fight like in the other post. You know what I mean, right?

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How the heck did you forget "there are no limits on art"?

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