I wish you the best. Zei-Gesunt, Mucho Aloha, Mazel Tov and God's Speed. Honestly. If you feel that a certain type of instrument gives you wings, provides you a spiritual release and let's you fly. DO IT. Who the hell am I to tell you what is right or wrong.

I was JUST STATING MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION on the issue and clarifying my stance.

I can still like you and respect you even if I disagree with you.

I'm just a slob like the rest of you guys.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

"Who's Your Crawdaddy"

[This message was edited by HowardR on 21 February 2006 at 02:09 PM.]

What's with this "Zelig" approach to life Howard? You seem to be everywhere.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

Personally speaking, it's only my opinion, and it's not directed towards any individual, group, or society, regardless of demigraphics, language, beliefs, traditions, or affiliation of any organized or unorganized political, religious, or social organization.

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I simply do not see how an 8 or 12 stringer could have performed it better

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I don't tend to think in terms of better or best when it come to players of equal talent playing different configuations.

Who's better....Tom Morrell or Jerry Byrd?
What's better...10 or 6?

Well, I think turn around is fair play. Please listen to Reece's Texas Swing CD, played on the 12 string, and please let me know how you would have played it on the 6 string.

The question is not whether tunes that were designed to be played on a six string sound better on a six string. The question is - are there other things that can be accomplished by opening up the physical limitations of the instrument.

[This message was edited by Bill McCloskey on 21 February 2006 at 08:55 PM.]

This has nothing to do with the HSGA.

Have you ever been to one of our conventions? We are not all Jerry Byrd wanna-bees who only play pre-war Rickenbackers.

Look at the pictures on our website. You'll see Ricks, Fenders, Dobros, Tricones, E Harps and pedal steels. Listen to the music on our website. You'll hear Hawaiian, Swing, Blues, C&W, Pop tunes and Western Swing.

If Reese were to show up and play at our show people would be facinated with his 12 string guitar and his talent. He'd be a "member of the tribe" in a New York minute.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 22 February 2006 at 05:59 AM.]

I brought it up because it seemed like a common denominator for those who were most empassioned and united in their objections.

BTW "Bum" is a UK colloquialism for 'Fanny' ( which means something ENTIRELY different over here)
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Steel players do it without fretting

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[This message was edited by basilh on 22 February 2006 at 04:19 AM.]

I used the piano comparision in an attempt to more clearly illustrate why I believe.....just because a piano has more octaves, (just as a steel guitar would which had more strings) that does not make the piano more difficult to play from a piano players perspective,....nor should it necessarily do so from a steel guitar players perspective, once the perception of octaves is clear.

The piano utilizes the octaves as a musical advantage, and my personal belief is.... a similar musical advantage exists on steel guitar when one uses more strings.

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regarding this issue

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Why regard this (tuning, # of strings) as an issue?

Baz, being on the fence may be the best seat in the house...

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Is there anyone argueing with Reece that is NOT a member of the HSGA?

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If not, there is still time to join.

how do you like that one, Wally?

[This message was edited by HowardR on 22 February 2006 at 04:56 AM.]

Whilst the 'Harmonic Centre' and final note of a tune may NOT be the tonic, it usually is.
The 3rd and NOT the 5th is sometimes used just to attract the listener's attention. The 5th leaves you waiting in suspense for the resolution.. Note that I say "Most and average" whilst not a "Hard and Fast" rule, this is an accepted fact amongst teachers and scholars of music.

As a general rule, no tune except a Tango finishes on the dominant chord (5-7th) for that very reason of the listeners perceived "it's not over yet" syndrome..
The same applies to the finishing of a tune on the tonic as a seventh.. Mainly used in Blues (and as a Ninth or variant in Jazz)
The general public has had its taste in music and harmonic content greatly influenced by the music and composers of the "Great American Song-Book" era.
The Root or Tonic is the key and indicates so to most listeners.
So WHY a tuning with the 5th on top?
Possibly to add colour in the BACKING but not quite so practical for solo work, the tuning with the third on top would be most suitable for backing and improvisation, whilst the tuning with the tonic as the top note SHOULD be the most useful for playing melody.
That's one of the reasons that three necked steels came to exist.

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Most modern music (say 1920-onwards) has the melody based around the tonic or root note of the key, any exceptions are just that exceptions...The general public has had its taste in music and harmonic content greatly influenced by the music and composers of the "Great American Song-Book" era.

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If you open up any book of jazz standards, many of which are based on the "Great American Song-Book" of Porter, Kern, Rogers and Hart etc. you'll find the above quoted statement to be far from the truth. Analyze the melody notes against the chords and you'll find plenty of non-root tones, WAY more than roots of every chord.

Melodies consisting of the roots of every chord as common practice and not the exception? I respectfully submit that I don't think so...

Also, does the violin have an E on top because it is the root of an E chord, or is it just wise guys putting a 9th on top of a basic D tuning (since fiddle music loves the key of D)?

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

As somwewhat an aside, but still discussing the 5th interval, I find it very interesting that when music was invented it was determined the 5th tone was to be the "dominant".

The definition of dominant is written: "implies more powerful... or more prominent than the competition". When applied to the science of music
"competition" may be interpreted as "other notes".

It would at first appear the word dominate was to be considered as what we know as the root, because of deffinition.

To the contrary, the termonology they decided upon implies something which is more powerful than dominate, they simply called it....root!

The written deffinition of root is:....thing by reason of which something else happens...fractional power.

The root and dominate together are (in my interpretation) the two musical stabilizers upon which other intervals are attached.

This of course does not imply the 5th should be the top string on a steel guitar, and incidentally I don't tune my guitar with a 5th on top either. However I do have the 5th tone above the 3rd interval with two other notes above which allows the 5th tone to become the root note of the 5 chord, and the other two strings above become the 3rd and 5th which provides a 5 major triad chord at the root position.

It is a very frustrating thing to try to play melodies on a toy xylophone that is exactly one octave. The vast majority of melodies need some notes either above the octave, or below it, or both. The tonic root is rarely the boundary. A germane experiment to the present discussion would be whether a single octave from 3rd to 3rd, or from 5th to 5th would work better for more melodies. That really is a central question in Reece's claim that a 5th on top is more musically useful for a 6 or 8 string steel.

The real question is, which inversion is more useful on the top string: 1) the root inversion (low to high: 1 3 5), the 1st inversion (3 5 1), or the 2nd inversion (5 1 3)? It is not a simple question, because it involves not merely the straight bar inversions of the tonic, IV and V, but also use of the 6th as the relative minor root, and bar slants of all sorts. It also involves what you give up on the bottom.

It is interesting that Reece has brought up this question, because, he can mostly dodge it with the 10- and 12-string MSA lap steels. I think it will be up to 6- and 8-stringers to answer this question for themselves. We have several historical models: 1) the Hawaiian and Western Swing C6, with the 3rd on top; 2) the bluegrass Dobro G, and Hawaiian and Western Swing A6, with the 5th on top; and 3) the Elmore James Blues school, with the root on top. I don't think there is going to be a single definitive answer for this.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 22 February 2006 at 09:51 AM.]

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We have several historical models: 1) the Hawaiian and Western Swing C6, with the 3rd on top; 2) the bluegrass Dobro G, and Hawaiian and Western Swing A6, with the 5th on top; and 3) the Elmore James Blues school, with the root on top.

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Mmmmm... isn't the E13 with the root on top a fairly popular tuning among Hawaiian and Western Swing players?
And I always believed that the open-E tuning followed the highbass-A in the Hawaiian tradition (didn't Sol Hoopii use open-E and later E6/C#m7?), so I think it's fair to say the 'root on top' approach is used for a lot more than just the bottleneck blues tradition.

Just an observation, this debate is way over my head so I'm just along for the ride and occasional info.....

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 22 February 2006 at 10:01 AM.]

I didn't really mean for my examples to be comprehensive. Being from Mississippi I am more familiar with the blues E and D tunings with the root on top. I don't know all the Hawaiian tunings off the top of my head, so thanks for the additions, Steinar.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

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nothing really deep.

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Yeah, that was my impression too..

Seriously,- I know the terminology, I guess what I was trying to hint at was that personally I have a very relaxed attitude to this,- there's pros and cons to any tuning so I try not to think so much about it and choose them by their "vibe" (now there's a scientific approach! ).
But if I had to narrow it down to only one it would be the 'root on top', probably because I had played guitar for 30 years before picking up lap steel, so it just feels more natural to me.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

"A music tradition is kind of an illusion. It doesn't ever freeze in one place. Traditional music is a great place to learn how to play an instrument. But once you can do that, you must start doing your own music"

He said no. The song bought him four houses, put three kids through college and let him see the world a hundred times.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

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The difference between Tony and Bob, is the fact that Bob plays Hawaiian music.

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The difference between Tony and Bob, is the fact that Bob plays Hawaiian music.

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Tony Bennett looks more at home in a $2000 suit.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 22 February 2006 at 03:58 PM.]

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The real question is, which inversion is more useful on the top string: 1) the root inversion (low to high: 1 3 5), the 1st inversion (3 5 1), or the 2nd inversion (5 1 3)? It is not a simple question, because it involves not merely the straight bar inversions of the tonic, IV and V, but also use of the 6th as the relative minor root, and bar slants of all sorts. It also involves what you give up on the bottom.

It is interesting that Reece has brought up this question, because, he can mostly dodge it with the 10- and 12-string MSA lap steels. I think it will be up to 6- and 8-stringers to answer this question for themselves. We have several historical models: 1) the Hawaiian and Western Swing C6, with the 3rd on top; 2) the bluegrass Dobro G, and Hawaiian and Western Swing A6, with the 5th on top; and 3) the Elmore James Blues school, with the root on top. I don't think there is going to be a single definitive answer for this.

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