1. G
2. E
3. C
4. A
5. G
6. E

I don't know why it isn't a more common tuning, but I've added it to my list of tunings.

[This message was edited by Brad Bechtel on 15 February 2006 at 02:11 PM.]

Sometime ago, I started a thread with regard to G6 tuning since I prefer that tuning on acoustic. There were several suggestions for tuning the G6, the most common being;

1. B - 3
2. G - 1
3. E - 6
4. D - 5
5. B - 3
6. G - 1   which has the same intervals as
.
.

1. E
2. C
3. A
4. G
5. E
6. C

Don Curtis wrote "Here is the tuning that set me free." Those words have been in my mind ever since. Here was his tuning;

1. D
2. B
3. G
4. E
5. D
6. B  which have the same intervals as
.
.

1. G - 5
2. E - 3
3. C - 1
4. A - 6
5. G - 5
6. E - 3

Perhaps Reece & Don may know something?

Ok, so the question, what is the advantage of one tuning over the other?

[This message was edited by HowardR on 15 February 2006 at 04:50 PM.]

I'll give you my opinion ... like it or not

The "E" on top of the C6 or C6/A7 tuning ... is the most "recognized" feature when studing the works of Jerry Byrd ...

It gives the player the availablity of copious amounts of potential harmony notes to that Melody String (E) ... especially:

1) Major 3rd to Minor 3rd Interval "Reverse Slants" on strings ... 1 & 2 (E & C)

2) Major 6th to Minor 6th Interval "Reverse Slants" on strings ... 1 & 4 ( E & G)

Combined these ... with the other available options associated with that top E string ... Split slant 9th chords, Minors (straight bar & 3 fret forward slants) and Augmented Split slants ...

And you see why it was so popular amoungst the "slant bar" crowd.

For a good look at tab illustrating the potential here ... check out Tunin's

Granted ... it's all still right there if you just put a G on top ...

But for me ... putting another string on top ... makes the reverse slanting more difficult.

I still can throw them of course ... but to hit 'em as fast and as accurate as needed sometimes ...

I don't know ... maybe it's a "mental block" ...

But I'm "not alone" here ... ... in this feeling of being "Reversely Restricted" simply by the presence of that G string ...

I predict as time goes by ... this "E" on top C6 tuning will lose popularity ...

As always ... just my opinion ... and just tryin' to help ...

Back to diapers, I go ...

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quote:

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Fresh from a nap

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you?....or Tucker?

quote:

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Back to diapers, I go

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You?....or Tucker?

After reading the comments within this thread I feel I should clearify my intentions and explain what I consider to be the logic of my direction.

Let me begin by saying I believe having the 5th interval(G)on the first string allows close proximity positioning not found when the "E" note is on top, therefore the "G" (5th interval) makes melodic playing more accessible.

I believe use of the "E" note (3rd interval) on the first string, was originated because of the limitations of the actual number of strings available and commonly offered on non pedal steels many years ago. Placing and "E" on the top string allowed a root note "C" to be on the 6th string. (when using a C6th tuning)

At one time or another, most non pedal players have been faced with the delima of deciding for themselves to use the 5th on top (G note)which dictated (when using a 6 string 6th tuning) a 3rd (E note)on the 6th string,.... or a 3rd (Enote)on top which produced a "C" (root) on the 6th string.

If one believes the "G" note sounds too thin, they have but to lower the tuning and it will become a non issue.

As far as the "G" string breaking, anything is possible, but the probability of breaking the high G string on a non pedal guitar (unless the strings are too old to begin with)is almost zero, and over my years of playing experience.....it is zero.

The mathematics of intervals proves the common Jerry Byrd slant (discussed within this thread which is normally played on the first three strings, when the "E" is on top) does not provide a musical positioning advantage or a more more viable musical criteria when considering having the "G" on top will provide the exact same thing at the same position on strings 2, 3 and 4.

In essence the "G" or the "E" on top may appear to some to be subjective, therefore a matter of personal preference. I personally prefer the melodic positioning advantage of the 5th interval "G" were I to be playing a 6 string steel guitar.

My question then becomes, why not have the musical advantage of BOTH, which will reveal even more musical possibilities.

In other words, why not consider an 8 string which would provide the 5th interval for melodic positioning,....AND the root in the bass,.... AND another 6th interval in the bass. Having the 6th interval in the bass will provide (among other advantages) the opportunity to play a diminish in the bass.

If the 8 string provides more musical and positioning possibilities, some may ask why I play a 12 string? I provided the answer when I described the difference between the 6 and the 8 string.....

The 12 string provides far more than twice the musical advantages than that of a 6 string, and it does so not only because of the number of additional strings, but the positions created by additional strings when considering altered intervals and bar slants.

With this concept in mind I would pose the question,....... if one were to consider playing a piano, would they buy one with half the notes on it?

Steel guitar tunings are similar to the notes on a piano, in that many are simply octaves, and they surely don't get in the way when playing piano, not should they when playing steel guitar once the mental and visual perception is acquired same as it must be when playing piano.

The SmarTab I will present in my upcoming seminar will represent that which is in the exact middle of my 12 string tuning. My doing so will hopefully provide the mental overview necessary to allow each one to best decide for themselves what is the best direction for them.

quote:

---

The mathematics of intervals proves the common Jerry Byrd slant (discussed within this thread which is normally played on the first three strings, when the "E" is on top) does not provide a musical positioning advantage or a more more viable musical criteria when considering having the "G" on top will provide the exact same thing at the same position on strings 2, 3 and 4.

---

Since I was the only fellow to mention Jerry Byrd in this thread ... I assume you are referring to my post ...

As I stated ...

quote:

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Granted ... it's all still right there if you just put a G on top

---

But as told to me many times by Mr. Byrd (in letters and talk tapes) ...

The essence of his style ... was to stay on his melody strings (the E and C ) ... for a passage ... and use the plethora of harmony notes available ... by using forward, reverse and split slants ... to keep the "flow" going.

quote:

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I believe use of the "E" note (3rd interval) on the first string, was originated because of the limitations of the actual number of strings available and commonly offered on non pedal steels many years ago. Placing and "E" on the top string allowed a root note "C" to be on the 6th string. (when using a C6th tuning)

---

I believe that within maybe two yrs or so (circa 1938) ... JB went from his 6 string C6 tunin' with the C at the bottom to his C6/A7 with the C# at the bottom ...

Therefore ... JB certainly didn't keep the E on top to have the root at the bottom ...

Mr. Anderson ... I know I'm not sharing anything with you ... that you didn't know ... long before I ever heard of a steel guitar ...

But it is general knowledge that Jerry Byrd did view the "G" as being too thin sounding as his main melody string ...

One only has to look at his other "main tuning" ... his C Diatonic ... to see that he kept those same two melody strings "intact" and in their same positions.

------------------

¿Whose right?

In my opinion JB is better then Reece...and Reece is better than JB. That's not such a silly statement. I also love the violin where three note chords arent really viable...but its another marvelous option.

In the hands of Yehudi Menuhin, Reece Anderson or Jerry Byrd, each option seems to be the ONLY one.

If I understand you correctly, we are in agreement relative to your first quote, in that the same can be played at the identical position with the 5th on top, only one string lower!

You mentioned it as having been said,"the essence of a melodic style was to stay on the root and 3rd intervals".

I respectfully submit the 5th interval above the 3rd is equally important, and in addition it can be used as an advantage in both forward and backward slants which can provide, (among others) a 2 note suggested 7th with the 3rd on top, and three notes of a diminish in very close proximity to any key center. This would not be possible with the 3rd on top.

I believe the melodic intent is more easily attained by having the 5th interval above the 3rd, and in so doing perpetuates the flow by providing a closer position proximity while completing a major triad on the top three strings.

Jerry Byrds feeling the high G was "too thin" is I'm sure shared by others as well.

If that be the case with some, and assuming they recognize the musical advantage of the high 5th, (which I believe truly exists) they could easily make use of the added advantage of the high 5th by lowering the pitch of the tuning slightly, which would not only "keep it from being too thin", it would provide additional musical options.

Musico....I appreciate your response to my post and for your very kind comment. Its an honor for me to even be mentioned in the same thread as my dear friend and steel guitar legend Jerry Byrd, much less in the same sentence....thank you!

Tony P....I most certainly do not interpret anything you said as a challenge of any kind.

I appreciate your comments and having the opportunity to respond. I'll look forward to seeing you next weekend in New York.

quote:

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You mentioned it as having been said,"the essence of a melodic style was to stay on the root and 3rd intervals".

---

Just for clarity sake ... I said:

quote:

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The essence of his style ...

---

I was simply describing Jerry Byrd's choice in selecting the strings associated with his C6, C6/A7 & C Diatonic tuning ... be it 6, 7 or 8 string steel guitars.

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While this is true, the two note suggested 7th chord is also available in a close proximity when the 3rd is on top. However, there is not a bar tuneable three string implied diminish to my knowledge with the same voicing (as that found when the 5th is tuned on top) anywhere near the key center, and even if the 3rd is tuned on top the chord is only obtainable on a minimum of 7 strings and is only found a long distance away on the low strings.

When playing an implied three note diminish and the guitar tuned with the 5th on top, it is conveniently located at the root position on strings 1, 3 and 4 with a reverse slant of one fret.

To play the same voiced diminish with the 5th interval being the highest note of the chord (while tuned with an E on the top) it requires moving the bar UP an entire octave from the original key center, and moving the fingers DOWN to the 5th string (5th interval) and again making the same reverse slant so as to create the same chord,... and even that is only possible with at least 7 strings.

When using a 6th tuning with the 3rd on top and playing with 6 strings, I know of no where on the guitar that even an implied three string bar tuneable diminish exists. One additional string would make this possible.

As many know, playing the same chord up high on low strings, sounds different than when playing the same chord low on high stings. In addtion to it sounding different, the necessity of having to move the bar a long distance when playing in tempo, makes it easy to "overshoot the landing", and difficult to "take off" and move lower on the neck to continue a seamless melodic structure.

A good example of why I prefer a 5th on top can be explained when applied to a song.

For example try playing the first three notes (in chords) to "Faded Love" in the key of "F" when playing with the 3rd on top.

To play the first three melody notes in chords, play strings 2, 4 and 5, then strings 1, 2 and 4....after doing so the only place to find the next triad within the melody that contains the needed a 5th, 3rd and root, is only found an entire octave away at the 17th fret and on strings 4, 5 and 6 which is recreating the needed 5th 3rd and root.

In so doing you will immediately notice the sound of the last chord does not "color" with the two played previously at the 5th fret.

When playing the exact same first three chords to "Faded Love" with the 5th on top, one simply plays string 3, 5 and 6, then 2, 3 and 5, then 1, 2 and 3 at the root position of "F" with no bar movement necessary, and the sound is beautiful and consistent.

Lee J....You did not specify the number of strings you were using on your E13th, so would you agree the possibility exists that were you to have more strings you could place the necessary strings on top so as to provide more melodic structure as you rightly stated was important....?

quote:

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I do however believe we are in agreement on the substance, do you agree?

---

I'm not sure ...

Since I was initially answering Howard's question about C6 tunings ..

There is no doubt in my mind ... that the Pivotal strings that JB based his "Melodic Style" of playing on ... in the C6, C6/A7 and C Diatonic Tunings ... were the E and the C.

But as everyone knows ... JB used a great variety of tunings ... basically whatever he thought would best fit a song.

He would use an A7 (5th on top) ...

B11 (basically an A based tuning with the 5th on top) ...

E9 or E13 (with a root on top) ...

And of course his various C6s with the 3rd on top ...

Regardless of what tuning he used ... the results were the same ... extremely rich, flowing harmonized melody.

No matter which of these tunings he used ... that ever present "E" ... was still on top ...

Therefore ... one may (or must) assume that it was the tonal qualities of that string ... that he enjoyed at that position ... more so than what intervals lay underneath it.

So ... in my opinion ... his "General Melodic Style" of playing had far less to do with the tuning used ...

And much more to do with how he approached playing the steel guitar itself ...

Basically ... staying on his melody strings to keep the "flow" uninterupted ... up and down the neck ... and use slants to harmonize this unbroken melody line.

If that meant he used only pieces of chords instead of "full chordal melody" ... so be it.

As they say in these parts ...

"The proofs in the puddin' ... "

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quote:

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would you not consider that as being a musical advantage!

---

Quite simply ...

No ...

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quote:

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Wow

---

Ok ...

I have tried to keep this discussion centered on the issue ... of what I have come to understand ...

As Jerry Byrd's philosophy of tuning and playing the Hawaiian Steel Guitar.

He must have seen no "Musical Advantage" of having the 5th on top of his C6 tuning ... or else he would have put it there ...

So who am I ... or for that matter ... who are you ...

To tell Jerry Byrd ... what is "More Musical" ...

I understand that you are "selling" your seminar & steel guitars ... more power to you ...

But I'm sure not going to sit back ... and let you use my "meager" views ... to make Jerry Byrd's tuning, style or choice of string number ...

Appear substandard ...

When I hear you ... or any of your contemporaries ... even approach the level of Melodic Bliss that so freely poured from JB's hands ... well, then I may change my opinion.

But I ain't heard it yet ...

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[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 18 February 2006 at 12:21 PM.]

quote:

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Rick A....I refuse to respond to such preposterous, ridiculous, unwarranted and unjustifed comments. You are obviously inclined to engage in undignified behavior, to which your comments will attest.

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Good ...

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I can kinda see where Reece is coming from, speaking of "musical advantage". Having the fifth-on-top gives you quicker access to that interval rather than having to travel up and down what would be your top string in a third-on-top tuning.

But I only see that as a matter of convenience, and in my experience, the choppiest steelers I've heard approach the steel this way... like a guitar... they try to find the most convenient fingerings.

However, on the steel, I feel you can't go for what's the most convenient. You have to go for the sound, the melodic continuity, the sweep into and out of each note. Everything is secondary to that.

So I think the fifth-on-top can perhaps be called an "advantage" if you want to think of the steel like a guitar or a piano and are looking for convenient, economic "fingerings".

Many steelers including myself will opt for the less convenient fingering simply because it contains the movement that gives us the sound we want.

quote:

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When playing the exact same first three chords to "Faded Love" with the 5th on top, one simply plays string 3, 5 and 6, then 2, 3 and 5, then 1, 2 and 3 at the root position of "F" with no bar movement necessary, and the sound is beautiful and consistent.

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quote:

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This is ridiculous, Rick A.

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Why ... because I don't believe that the addition of 4 extra strings and a 5th on top will make Jerry Byrd's tuning more musical ...

Or that I stood there ... calmly addressing each of Mr. Anderson's questions/issues ...

Until I was insulted with a sarcastic ... "Wow" ... when I didn't agree with his assertions.

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[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 18 February 2006 at 07:05 PM.]

I have done my best to state my position, as well as provide that which I believe to be a logical basis for my opinion.

I can only hope that through this discussion it has helped some to become convinced as to what is the best direction for them, which was my primary motivation for taking part in the discussion.

quote:

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1-D
2-B
3-G
4-E
5-D
6-B
Then you've still got your Dobro stuff and open string tricks plus the fat chord and harmony intervals...it set me free

---

Even with his new found freedom, I hope he comes back to expound on this a bit...

[This message was edited by HowardR on 19 February 2006 at 05:25 AM.]

With apologies to Jerry Byrd for paraphrasing: "If you can play, it doesn't matter what guitar or tuning you use. If you can't play, it doesn't matter what guitar or tuning you use.