------------

I keep a Pahu Ko-ele (hollowed / slotted log drum) handy in my shop to casually tap my fingers on when / while a few Locals here attempt to lay an indigenous Hawaiian claim upon melodic / "pathagorian"-based music played in Hawaii on melodic instruments, none of which existed in Hawaii until introduced and perpetuated by Haoles ... (vs Hawaii's truely indigenous tonal / rythmic Mele).

As hard as Pride begs to differ, melodic "Hawaiian" music has been evolutionary and would / could not exist without the Haole armature, elements, HEAVY influences and direct Haole contributions it's been written upon, during any given period after about 1800, with a grand and wonderful Hawaiian character (much of the time anyway; ah-hum JAWAIIAN ... different times, folks & strokes! ).

I would better understand the value of anyone desiring to attribute a definition / claim upon "Hawaiian" Music, ...if they would state the time period and elements they are referencing. Otherwise we might as well include Jawaiian which is every bit as much modern "Hawaiian" as was "Hawaiian" during any given period of time after about 1800 ...imho. And yes, Jerry's playing was very different than ......Jawaiian .

-------

Edited (6-28-06 05:26 AM) to add: ...and I think Jeff Au Hoy's efforts, accomplishment and odometer is quite qualified to help find definition of "Hawaiian" during any period of time.

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 07 July 2006 at 05:16 PM.]

Shouldn't the question be "is it good music on not"?

This debate is found in EVERY style and sub-style of music. People think a very narrow parameter defines bluegrass; when you listen to the original Monroe recordings, you find (gasp!) walking bass lines and Grappelli-influenced fiddle.

When practioners of Irish trad go back and really listen to Michael Coleman, they find he's an improvisor- and not just ornamentation; real melodic improv that you'll rarely hear at a session...

I'm all for understanding the unique components that make up a style/genre of music; I also know it is individual players that cause seismic shifts in genres. It takes a lot of heart to "be different", because there are always people ready to shoot you down, not on the merits of the actual playing, but on more philosophical grounds.

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT pointing any fingers at anyone on the Forum, but sharing what I've seen in the musical worlds I walk through.

Many (not all) of the detracters/begrudgers and self appointed keepers of the flame (in any style of music) are very passionate about what they feel are the "pure elements" of the music, and they resist any change. They also tend to be weak musicians (some of whom I've known personally to never practice anything other than their rants).

Jerry Byrd remains a benchmark for musical and technical excellence on the steel guitar, regardless of musical genre.

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 28 June 2006 at 06:13 AM.]

After all perception is reality... when you are playing for an audience, their oppinion is what really matters most.

If you are only playing for yourself, college music students, or traditionalist band members, then you can afford to be very picky about what is and what isn't authentic.

Just my oppinion, BTW I love to take swing standards, oldies etc and arrange them hawaiian style.

Dom Franco

[This message was edited by Dom Franco on 28 June 2006 at 07:10 AM.]

I was accused of playing Hawaiian steel guitar at a country recording session last week! I was in fact playing okie on a lap steel? The singer always wants tele from me because I'm a good guitar player and he doesn't have a clue about non pedal steel. So this issue of what in fact is "Hawaiian steel" does come up in other areas.

John I caught that too.
And took plenty of flack for walking sometimes.
Many of the bass players later on were just
not as good as the "original bluegrass band's" bass player.

So less became more standardized.
I can occasionally hear some jazz manouche in the early recordings.

I would define Hawaiian music as :

Music sung in Hawaiian
Or with specific Hawaiian islands themes
And instrumentation typically played there
in the last 100 years or so.

The indigenous folk music of those islands.
Which includes slack key, and acapella chant.

And the stereo-typical music any tourist would recognize on going there.

Much of it has clear anticedants in 20's jazz,
and olde timey musics much of the time

Instruments that ALWAYS come to mind :
slide guitar, ukelele, rythmn guitar, and wood drums.

As far as what's "Hawaiian Music" ... I'm gonna have to defer to "real musicians" for that ...

But I sure don't buy into "Authenticity" being associated with Genetic Predisposition or Environment for that matter (ie: being born and raised in blah, blah, blah)

Hal Smith, Mike Scott, Bruce Clarke, Mike Neer, etc ... pretty much "poo poo" those notions

Personally ...

I'd rather hear Dave Giegerich play "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" or Jeff Au Hoy play "The Oscar Mayer Weiner" theme ... than some of the Hawaiian music (w/ or w/o steel guitar) that I've heard ... past or present.

It's the instrument and how it's played that I'm drawn to ...

------------------

Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 28 June 2006 at 10:26 AM.]

The suposition that :

You can't play "really Hawaiian"
if you're not Hawaiian,
which appears to be the basis of many
of these critisisms,

is parallelled by the thought you
can't play jazz if you're not black.

Well both are complete BS.

The best players in any genre do NOT sound like the others in it.
They sound like themselves.
EVENTUALLY the listening audience picks up on this uniqueness.
And the become well known and respected.

AND even in this case there are still those
who will carp that "they don't play like XC,Y,Z, xo it ain't correct.

Jerry was amazing, and most of the "great"
hawaiian players recognized that.

A few got crotchety in their later years,
and their pearls of wisdom were passed
on by others, as much harsher observations
than they actually were.

This seems also to apply here.

A few may have not "allowed him into their club"...
Their loss not Jerrys.

"Hawaiian" music is a nowadays a marketing term that is rapidly encompassing about every genre that you'd see at a major chain music store that doesn't read "Hawaiian" on the shelf label: the only difference is that in doing so, it gets watered down while losing its hipness. For better or for worse, it'll probably end up enjoying the same fate as modern Country music. But that won't stop me from listening.

Matt

[This message was edited by Matt Rhodes on 28 June 2006 at 11:53 AM.]

Jesse... sorry, I wasn't hinting towards Jerry in the other thread at all. I was actually pointing towards a person like yourself. I shouldn't have picked Nashville, as that probably confused things. Please know that if Jerry (with all his expertise and experience) had an opinion on what is Hawaiian-style, I'd definitely want to hear it. Sorry to confuse things.

[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 28 June 2006 at 06:00 PM.]

What we are asking you to address is what it is that you consider to be real Hawaiian steel since you are excluding JB. I'm not saying what is the real stuff or isn't, it all sounds real to me. Some guys I strive to sound like and others I don't, but I'm not the one saying any artist isn’t real?

I was hoping that you would stand behind your statements and defend them because you thought they were important, seemed educational to me and to others. I mean if you don't, than what the heck does it look like? Nobody wants you to shut up, that’s a cop out. It seemed like a big step for some of us to admit the swing issue concerning JB, why is that?

For me, especially in hula-type records (those intended for the dancer), Jerry tends to over play, running up and down scales or showing off fancy slants. But this is Jerry's style. It may be beautiful to someone--I just don't consider it Hawaiian style playing.

This is not to single out Jerry. People have criticized Barney Isaacs and Jules Ah See as having been too "jazzy". For me, even Dick McIntire had severe bouts of jazzing it up. Billy too was an admitted jazzer, but when it came time to play Hawaiian style (i.e. "the way we sing") they would do it. I think Feet Rogers stands out to a lot of Hawaiians because, as simple as he played, he pretty much only played Hawaiian style.

Again, I have no intention to cut down anyone... these are simply the sounds I hear and the classifications I make. Dom said anything with an 'ukulele and a steel playing 6th chords sounds "Hawaiian" to him. I can't argue that.

[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 28 June 2006 at 07:34 PM.]

IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHAT MAKES STEEL PLAYING SOUND HAWAIIAN OR HAVE A HAWAIIAN TOUCH OR STYLE?

It has been hard to pin down and that is why it seems we have a little difficulty in defining it.

For me, I know it when I hear it. When I hear it, it always produces chicken skin. Then, even when I hear it, I do not believe that I could analyze it and then be able to adequately communicate it.

I believe that Jeff and Derrick Mau in listening could immediately tell the differance but even they may have difficulty in communicating it.

I would like to hear what Derrick Mau says about the subject.

I wish my friend John Auna from the Big Island was here to discuss this. He played the old Hawaiian songs in an old Hawaiian style which was simple and captivating. It always produced chicken skin. This kind is rarely heard today. Partly I believe it is in the songs that are played

I believe some of the following elements are involved in the Hawaiian touch and style which are (not in order of importance.):

1. Hawaiian vamps – both instrumentally and backing up vocals.

2. Glissing.

3.Smooth oscillation of the bar other than when there is a need for fast picking. Hawaiian steel players oscillate bar much more than country western players. MHO

4.Delicate picking or good, sensitive touch with the picks rather than attacking the strings.

5. Single string playing which allows more expression as Jeff has stated. He feels more full chordal playing limits the expression, if I have heard him right.

6. Playing with heart

7. I still believe that some of it comes from growing up with it. IMHO

8. Absolutely leaving the volume foot-pedal control out of it. It sounds country.

I have to take a break. See ya later.

Aloha,
Don

[This message was edited by Don Kona Woods on 28 June 2006 at 10:59 PM.]

quote:

---

Jerry tends to over play, running up and down scales or showing off fancy slants

---

But that's what "attracts" the ladies ...

Just ask ... SpongeBob Fancyslants

------------------

Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 29 June 2006 at 08:17 AM.]

quote:

---

This is apparent to those immersed in the music here.

---

On the other hand ... you guys seem to be doin' just fine ...

-------

quote:

---

On the other hand ... you guys seem to be doin' just fine ...

---

That would likely change pretty quick if "they" were to intimate to the Ladies what's "Authentic" about them and what's not !

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 29 June 2006 at 08:04 PM.]

I'm in complete agreement with you in that a song must have Hawaiian lyrics to be considered Hawaiian music.

Hawaiian music has many, many styles . . most in recent years I'm not particularly fond of. Go to mele.com to listen to Henry Kapono's new CD called "The Wild Hawaiian" to see what Hawaiian music is revolving to.

Anyway, to answer the question if someone has to be Hawaiian in order to sound Hawaiian, I don't think so. Some of Hawaii's steel players have little or no Hawaiian blood, but we do have one advantage; we lived in the islands all our lives, so we are very familiar with Hawaiian music, how it should sound, and how to express the right feel into our music.

I know that some languages can have a sound that goes up in pitch or down in pitch to mean different things and so it seems to me you guys are referring to how a note is approached and departed that is a reflection of the same approach to the Hawaiian language and Hawaiian singing right? Is how you gliss a big part of the Hawaiian launage?

Why doesn't everybody just focus on sounding like themselves? Do you think it sounded "Hawaiian" the first time Joseph Kekoku slid a knife or whatever across a SPANISH guitar? What about the Portugese sailor and his Ukelele? How "Hawaiian" did he sound at the time?

Who's to say some kid in the Islands can't take a Fender bass with one string and start playing it with a bow and in 100 years that's considered an essential part of Hawaiian music?

Jules sounded "jazzy" beause jazz was popular at the time. He was being openminded to his own musical growth, not just being some kind of musical civil war reinactor. That's what made him a great player. Musicians are influenced by their surroundings. Just like a student never stops learning, music never stops evolving. If every chapter's bneen written, then the story's over. Once the music is frozen and stands still to be documented, it's dead.

I love playing traditional forms of music, but at the end of the day, the music I play is my music, more so than it's Hawaiian or country or jazz or rock or whatever. That's just marketing. Of course there is an overall difference between hawaiian and country (being the two most popular styles on this forum), but why can't there be any grey area? Jimmie Rodgers was just as much a bluesman as he was the "father of country music", and the first fiddler was just an Irishman playing bag pipe music on a violin.

Music is for rejoycing. Play what makes you happy. Thank goodness the scholars (and amataur scholars like ourselves) keep track of where the music is coming from, but let's not forget to take it somewhere, too.

Without growth, you die.

aloha,
CS

[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 30 June 2006 at 10:06 AM.]

But most of the music is of course more mainland songs than original hawaiian.
I like them all and probably can still play about 28 solos. Most of them well known. We played them at Luas' , Hawaiian clubs, (they were popular then) I liked the floor shows with the hula girls and their grass skirts and Leis on their neck.
Down where the trade winds play, on the beach at waikikee.
I dreamed at that time of moving to Hawaii and playing my guitar. I never made it there, but the great Jerry Byrd did....sl

------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Sorry for the late reply. Been busy.
I have both volumes by Stacy Phillips. Both have good examples for learning Hawaiian licks in the old style, but how Hawaiian one will sound depends on how well you are able to execute feel. Everyone will sound different.

As an experiment, maybe Keoki Lake could try this as he teaches many students. Have a Hawaiian vamp laid out in tablature and have each student play it. You'll find that they'll all execute the feel differently, especially those if they are from different countries.

But just because someone can't do this well doesn't mean he or she is not playing Hawaiian music. THEY ARE PLAYING HAWAIIAN MUSIC, but you won't sound as Hawaiian as those that can nail down the correct feel.

Here are some of my secrets to sounding more Hawaiian while playing.

1. Add more chimes, single note and double note to your playing.

2. Use triplets where feasible instead of single notes. Bob Brozman does this well; see his video for examples.

3. Use hammering technique. Listen to Gabby Pahinui's CD, Slack Key and Steel Guitar Instrumentals Volume 2. Gabby uses this technique on "He Aloha No O Honolulu".

4. Slide into the chord. Listen to Billy Hew Len on Lena Machado's album. Billy will play a vamp and he'll finish by sliding into the tonic chord.

5. Don't use a volume pedal. I agree with Don Woods. It'll make your playing sound more country; of course, unless you want it to. The majority of Hawaiian steel players don't use it, but it does do justice to a couple of songs such as Whispering Lullaby and Paradise Isle.

***
Derrick, thanks for that information. I do all that stuff including lifting lines from Jeff, lol.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 01 July 2006 at 11:19 AM.]

If you take what Derrick has said and combine it with what I said in an earlier post you have most of the technical side of the issue. IMHO

However to get it "right" or have the "true sound," I believe that you have to be immersed in Hawaiian music and have a feel for it. Immersion comes from listening to a lot of Hawaiian music over the years where you get the feel for it. Or immersion comes from having been raised or lived in the Islands a long time where you hear it and play it continuously and where it becomes a part of you and your expression. All of this is assuming that one has some ear for music.

Now having said this, this does not mean that anyone should be left out just because they don't have that exact Hawaiian style or feel. For me, it is not a black and white issue, but a continuum.

A lot of us "haoles" that have been around this Hawaiian music for some time do have some feel for it. We are some place along the continuum on sounding “purely Hawaiian.” But we do not get that distinct feel that Derrick and Jeff refer to when they say, “make a recording and we will tell you if the person grew up in the islands or is from the mainland.” So if it is a continuum then I would put David Kelii on top of that continuum. The rest of us are below him.

For myself, I believe that I can hear the sound that Jeff and Derrick are talking about, but I do not believe that I can reproduce it when I play. However, I have had two professional Hawaiian steel guitar players from the Islands say I have a Hawaiian touch, but they are just talking about the engaging of the strings in a sensitive way. That does not mean that I play with the Hawaiian style that Jeff or Derrick might refer to.

What does this mean to me? Even though I do not play a completely Hawaiian style, there is nevertheless some evidence that I have some Hawaiian style. I plan to keep striving for a purer Hawaiian style because that is what is in my heart to do. Will I ever attain it? I do not know, but it does not stop me from trying. If anyone wants to help me in my pursuit, I’m listening.

Bob Brozman states that "the electric steel guitar and bad Hollywood songwriters killed Hawaiian as ethnic music".

It's a powerful musical form that can absorb so many influences and yet still retain its unique character. But I still think it needs to be firmly rooted in the traditional. The unifying factor is the player. A player that has the Hawaiian touch and spirit will demonstrate that in everything he or she plays.

I am reminded of when I was first listening to a wonderful 4 CD western swing compilataion. Over 100 tunes by all sorts of well known and (some forgotten) greats. Lots of non pedal steel guitar. Anyway, a Sons of the Pioneers song comes on and suddenly the steel comes in, and whoa!! Just a few well chosen syncopated chordal stabs, with great tone. No solo, but man it stood out from the other selections like a sore thumb. In a good way! I thought, "who is THAT guy? He sounds Hawaiian. But with the Sons of the Pioneers?"
So I look at the liner notes, and it turns out to be Sam Koki.

For me, the Hawaiian sound is unmistakable, regardless of context.

Before I found Pat (Palika), I wasn't truly a Hawaiian musician at all.

I knew each song forwards and backwards, but only in the exact same format I heard it on the record.

What Palika taught me about Hawaiian music in our working band - The Smokin Menehunes - , is that Hawaiian music must and needs to be very fluid.

Yeah, the song may start with this vamp or it may not, yeah, I may toss a pa'ani (solo) you're way here, or I may not. Yeah, we may go the song once or we may double or triple it if need be. Yeah, it may have a hula dancer or it may not. Yeah, it may end this way, or it may not.

You gotta listen closely braddah!

Hawaiian musis isn't technically difficult in a music theory kind of way.

What makes Hawaiian music exciting and a bit difficult is the interplay between the audience and the players.

Andy said

quote:

---

Note to self: quit while ahead.

---