G
E
C
G
G
G
C
G
G
C
C
C

Drop the sixth str. G down to F. I don't have the middle D, but I lower the E to D on the same pedal as the "C" pedal on E9. Pushes harder, but still not bad.

C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 02 January 2003 at 08:49 PM.]

quote:

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I know it messes up the "stummability" of the C6th, but I play with four picks and I'm comfortable with skip grips.

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b0b, I wasn't going to respond to this since it is certainly your preogative to have any tuning you want, and certainly your own particular style and musical preferences have a lot to do with your decisions on your copedent, BUT, when you somehow imply that the "strummability" is the issue, than I jump in. The "strummability" is the result of the fact that the standard C6 without the middle D note is a logical tuning that allows complex chords to be constructed logically. That understanding alone would take a post that would be pages long. But just for example, pedals 6,7 together form a "jazz minor" chord, which is the chord that outlines the jazz minor (melodic minor) scale, one of the vital scales for playing traditional jazz. This chord/scale provides an extremely rich harmony that has truly a multitude of uses in many progressions. It is sometimes called a #11, altered chord, min(maj7), etc., depending on the root (bass note). To play the chord completely, requires 7 notes (in the open tuning, that would be, from string 9 up, F,A,C,Eb,G,B,D). It has two major-7 intervals (C-B,Eb-D) which account for the depth of this harmony. You can get by with 6 strings (leave out the pedal 7 "D" note), but anything less and you lose some of the essense of the chord/scale. As far as I know, only piano and steel can play this chord. The reason it can be played on C6 is the logic of the standard tuning. It CANNOT be played with 4 picks, only approximated, like on 6-string guitar. I could easily provide other examples as well of this issue, although the corruption of this chord alone is reason enough. If you aren't interested in traditional jazz, then you probably don't care, but there are readers/players out there who may not know any better, who should understand this issue. Best of luck with the new copedent. .. Jeff

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 02 January 2003 at 10:50 PM.]

For example, make your top 3 strings:
D
A
G

Followed by the standard 6th setup (with whatever extra KL's).

I find it great for Big Band and Western Swing.

My 12 string B6th on S12U:
C#
G#
F#
Eb
B
G#
F#
Eb
B
G#
E
B

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 03 January 2003 at 12:59 PM.]

G
E
D
C
A
G
E
C
A
F
D
C
P4 raises string 5a-b,10f-g & 11d-e
Raising the middle A-Bb gives some nice inovations

BTW, since I've got so damn many pedals on that axe, I just put a middle C to D raise on another pedal. So I'm able to get most of those chords too, and keep the familiar "strumability" in tact. I don't feel too self indulgent though cuz my main gigging steel is just a D10 8+2.

[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 04 January 2003 at 10:29 AM.]

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modern type chord-melody bass lines.

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Rick, it's funny that you use the word "modern" to describe chord-melody bass movement. My impression from a couple of the proponents of the middle-D thinking is that they generally feel that you sacrifice the low 10th string C note if you have to (b0b isn't, since he has 12 strings), since the middle-D gives you "modern" voicings. Since most proponents of the middle-D generally have no problem with dumping the 10th string C, they obviously feel that that string (and by implication, bass-chord-melody dynamics) offers little in the way of supporting "modern" jazz thinking. So, I guess one person's "modern" can be different than another person's "modern", no?

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 January 2003 at 03:11 PM.]

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Didn't Curly C. also have a low D on his C6?

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quote:

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I guess the word "modern" was a misnomer on my part. More like "quartal" I guess.... and 30+ years isnt exactly modern is it?

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Rick, My point was more directed at the idea that, somehow, only TODAY'S jazz tunes are considered "modern". You automaticaly looked at jazz from decades back as being modern; that does make sense to me. I guess I don't like the idea of distinguishing part of the genre as "modern", because it implies that other parts are "old" or "ancient", and that makes NO SENSE to me. I mean to say that today's stuff is modern, implying that the stuff of Parker, Coltrane, Tatum, etc. isn't modern, I dont' see it. Jazz thinking decades ago was so much more harmonically advanced than today's pop music, as well as much of the jazz that is recorded today. To my ears, rock and pop and country seem to get dated, but, other than the lower recording quality of decades back, jazz from back then sounds plenty "modern" to me. Maybe the songs aren't recently written and recently on the charts, but it doesn't sound old. The same thing can be said for tradtional classical music. It's timeless, and never gets old sounding.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 05 January 2003 at 06:52 AM.]

quote:

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On the C6th, the upper octave of a pedal combination is more likely to have different notes from the lower octave.

Does that characteristic automatically make it 'jazz'?

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We're talking strictly harmonically here, because obviously any musical genre is defined also in terms of rhythm, composition, instrumentation, and other things. But, harmonically speaking, the C6 tuning gives you jazz harmony for a number fo reasons. As you said, the pulls aren't parallel, and generally speaking that gives you many opportunities for creating the combinations of intervals that are generally used in jazz harmony. And equally, if not more important, is the fact that the basic tuning is built in such as a way as to naturally allow you to create the FUNDAMENTAL building blocks of jazz harmony (in ways that are FAR more intuitive and accessible than on E9). Such as: the 5 qualities of 7th chord ( maj7, min7, dim7, 7b5, dominant7). Such as: jazz minor chord (see my above post). Such as: jazz cadences ii-V, tri-tone subs. Such as: bass movement to support the motion of the progressions. When you start combining, mixing and matching all this stuff together, then you're playing jazz. The next issue becomes just how "out-of-the-box" do you want to get. The melodies of jazz standards are usually diatonic and require the chord progressions to create the interesting jazz harmony. The more you diverge from the harmony of the original tune, the more "out-of-the-box" your jazz becomes.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 05 January 2003 at 07:32 AM.]

Along with the hybrid Sacred Steel tuning you proposed (and which I have been using exclusively on my E neck), you have a combination of strumability (on the E tuning) and a great tuning to get jazz or any other sort of voicings you want to hear with this tuning.

quote:

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unless you want to do solo jazz like Joe Pass

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Who wouldn't want to play jazz like Joe Pass!! I mean, what serious jazz guitarist wouldn't want to play jazz like Joe Pass!!!!! That's like saying "unless you want to play steel guitar like Buddy Emmons". Sheesh!

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 06 January 2003 at 02:10 AM.]

Some of the jazz players that I think translate well to the steel are players like Johnny Hodges, or in the guitar world, Wes Montgomery.

quote:

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Most of the stuff he played doesn't translate particularly well to the steel

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quote:

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the style is tied to his considerable virtuosity

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What does this mean? Style is not tied to virtuosity. Style is the juxtaposition of a musician's rhythmic, harmonic, melodic, and technical components. Virtuosity is simply the competency with which these things are performed. One can stylistically play like Joe Pass or Buddy Emmons, even they are not virtuosos.

quote:

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If somebody could give an example of a steel player doing the same thing as that solo Pass work I could be convinced.

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However, if I were to try to nail the Joe Pass style, I would use a tuning pretty similar to the tuning that b0b is proposing, and would use a picked style (probably would need to use picks on all fingers). If you listen to Joe's solo playing, he is choosing very specific 3-5 voice harmonies in his chording, picking these with his fingers (or so it sounds to me). He is not fingering a standard jazz chord in his left hand and strumming.

Or so it sounds to me. I'm not a guitar player, but I saw Joe play a few times in the early 70s, and that's what it looked like to me.