I've read stuff that says six cents is "unplayable." I've also read stuff that says it's no big deal; just adjust bar pressure or tune your E's a bit sharp or don't push so hard on the pedals and you'll be fine.

Some people seem to be okay with up to ten cents drop, other wince at even one!

I'm going to try detuning various strings on my lapsteel to see what level I can live with, but I'd still appreciate any thoughts anybody has, especially on the subject of the effectiveness of workarounds like adjusting bar pressure and stuff like that.

Also, some posts suggest that simply cleaning a guitar up and getting everything underneath in tight condition can go a long way to reducing the problem. Any thoughts on this are also very welcome.

quote:

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what would people consider to be an "acceptable" level of cabinet drop?

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There have been a number of improvements down thru the years in the evolution of the PSG. Sadly, two of these have NOT been given the impetus they should have been IMO, by most of the builders. They are:

1. The tops of the strings being dead level flat at the nut. (The nut rollers should long since have been made adjustable up an down)

2. Cabinet drop and raise. NO excuse for it IMO. (note: the argument that cabinet drop aids when engaging pedals has never made sense to me)

I will repeat an oft' phrase. "I would gladly give up glitter and gold to have these two problems corrected, instead."

Glitter and gold is short lived. But string rattle at the first few frets; and of course cabinet drop, lives with you as long as you play the guitar.

Oh well,

carl

Just because it sounds in tune to you does not mean that you are in tune. If you are playing alone it doesn't matter how you tune, but if you are in a band, you need to be in tune with that band. To me 442.5 is sharp! I tune as close to 440 as my guitar will permit, all strings and all pedals.

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

[This message was edited by rhcarden on 06 March 2003 at 08:05 PM.]

What is not acceptable to some is no problem for a lot of others. How do you exlain that? Could it be that they are better players? The bottom line is...you gotta learn to play through all these insignificant problems! No one even heard the term "cabinet drop" before digital tuners came into widespread use. The same thing for the uneven strings at the nut. It's real easy to blow these "problems" out of proportion, and be obsessed by them.

Listen to some of those 40 year-old records, and tell me where you hear these problems! (You probably won't hear them.)

Oh, and before you blame your steel for every shortcoming in your steelplaying, let someone else (a good player) play it, and you just sit back and listen.

Then see if that doesn't tell you where the real problem is.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 05 March 2003 at 11:29 AM.]

quote:

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Just because it sounds in tune to you does not mean that you are in tune

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I think everyone would be amazed if you took a tuner to the solos of some of the best players in the world, and looked at their so-called perfect intonation. I would venture to guess that you would find MANY notes that are noticeably off on close scrutiny. Playing and sounding in-tune has far more to do with the musical sensibilities of the player and how they are conveyed by his/her technique, then they do with 5 cents of cabinet drop or JI vs ET. But with that being said, if you believe you are out of tune (which is possible with 1 cent of cabinet drop!), you will undoubtedly play and sound out of tune, as much if not more because of the psychological aspect of it as the physical tuning of the strings and pedals.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 05 March 2003 at 11:59 AM.]

If it sounds in tune and you have good ears, YOU ARE IN TUNE. Also, it's much more important, and more difficult to PLAY in tune.

You make a valid point. So does Larry. Let me muddy the waters even further.

I went over to a fellow steel players house one time. He asked If I wanted to play his brand new Emmons' LeGrande. As I tried to play it, his 3rds were WAY too sharp for me. His 5ths were too flat for my ears. So I said,

"I am afraid I can't play it because it is not tuned the way I tune". He immediately said, "Retune like you like it".

When I did, and played it, he commented. "That sounds great" And he was not just trying to make me feel good.

When he sat back down, he immediately retuned it his way. And HE sounded great to my ears. It was beautiful.

When the day comes ANY body on this earth can explain that scenario to me (to my satisfaction), I will eat their steel bar AND picks on the 50 yard line; during half time; at the next superbowl.

And I will not buy that either of us was "tweaking" the bar to compensate.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 05 March 2003 at 04:39 PM.]

I sat down with my Duolian today and first tuned it to open C as accurately as I could without a tuner (after tuning the first string with one). Every string was a tiny amount off, but no more than a cent or three. So my ear isn't perfect, but it's not terrible.

So then I tuned up WITH the tuner to get everything "perfect." I put the bar at the fifth fret, stummed once to hear if I was in tune, then without moving the bar checked each individual string on the tuner. Whoa. The fifth string was about ten cents sharp, the sixth string four or five flat, the rest of them within a few cents but not a single string was perfectly where it was supposed to be.

I tried adjusting the bar pressure front to back (took a surprising amount of downward pressure to bring a string even a few cents up) and slanting the bar, but because of the big difference between the fifth and sixth strings that didn't work. The most I could get was strings one, three and four in tune and everything else a little bit out, especially that fifth string.

After some more tests I realized that if I played any INDIVIDUAL NOTE or two note combination I could get in tune almost perfectly, but strumming a whole chord just couldn't be done on my guitar if you wanted to keep everything EXACTLY in tune. And I realized that I couldn't really hear it!

So I guess when it comes to me, at this point I can live with a fair amount of "out-of-tuneness" as long as it's buried within a full chord.

Oh, and I should add that about ten cents out either way was my limit within a chord before I did start to notice, and two cents was my limit for a single note.

I should have known. I believe the grammatical error has been corrected. Thanks for the lesson. It is appreciated.

A push-pull won't quite make it down a whole tone (which I require), but mine hardly has any noticeable cabinet drop, so I use a plain sixth on my '69. That's what works for me.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 06 March 2003 at 03:01 PM.]

Then, I heard that Excel had come up with a mod on their new guitars to counteract cabinet drop. So I sent an email to Mitsuo to find out if my PSG could be upgraded. He very kindly said, "no becaue of the changes I had him make on my guitar". This made sense but saddened me even further.

Then, one of my dear friends, David Phillips, bought a brand new Excel and was nice enough to send me several really close up photos of the counterforce mechanism on his guitar. Also another friend, Gary Steele, who purchased one told me his cabinet drop was zero with this mod.

After days of studying the photos David had sent me, I thought I may have hit on a way that the device "could" be redesigned and installed on my guitar. So I drew it all up to scale and sent it to Mitsuo.

He emailed me the moment he got the drawings. I am happy to say he agreed and he is now in the process of milling the new parts to fit my guitar. Needless to say I am very excited about this.

I can't wait to get it and install it. I will let you know how it works. I simply cannot say enough about this builder. NEVER in my life have I ever met a person in business more willing to help a past customer than Mistuo Fujii.

God bless this dear man,

Now Andre, rest his soul, had notably sensitive ears (he wouldn't play until a/c units were switched off), but I'd be surprised if the PSG wasn't subject to the same basic principals of physics - we can get them in tune at fret-zero, but they'll go awry somewhere up the neck - what price 'cabinet-drop' then?

Throw out the digital tuners (ignoring the fact that I've just bought a DTR-1 ), and some of the problem will evaporate for some people. Anyway, even the Great Ones can be a bit 'off' - Buddy's penultimate note on 'Once upon a Time In The West' is a case in point, but who'd argue that it remains one of the most beautifully-played steel guitar recordings any of us have heard...

Perhaps it's a necessary evil -- or perhaps everyone will resort to a mechanical device like the Emmons Counterforce to 'undo' it. BTW, all the LeGrande III's I've heard with the counterforce compensator have sounded good to my ears, so maybe that's a way to get around the issue. I just wish they'd resume making 12-string guitars so I could find out.

ALL your points are well received.

Having been in design and developement most of my life, I can equate with everything you said.

One of the things that MUST be strived for in solving "known" problems, in any piece of equipment, is to recognize where variables are and where problems can be cured. It is here that I have a "peave" with builders concerning the latter, ie, "cabinet drop".

Sure, temperature changes, strings, bar pressure, specific frets, etc, etc. ALL play a part in how well or how badly a given guitar is in tune (or out of tune).

BUT in order for those to be as minimal as possible, it is always best IF known problems do NOT enter the equation. Because it is here where the end result does justify the means.

IN other words, everything else being equal, a guitar with Zero cabinet drop is always better (IMO) than one with cabinet drop. There are some things we cannot help. Those we must live with. But we do NOT half to exacerbate those anomalies with things we CAN correct.

Cabinet drop IS one of the things that can and SHOULD have been corrected long ago. The SAME thing can be said about the tops of strings not being level at the nut rollers. Simply NO excuse for this from where I sit.

I can only insist that attention be focused on cabinet warping, and changer cross shaft shifting off dead center, under the stress of the string pulls.

Bill H.

quote:

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I don't see the A+F position as anyting more than "more of the same" in a different position, and am eliminating it from my steels in favor of something new and robust.
So there's one problem eliminated!

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Before we had the F lever, I used to think that the 2nd inversion of a major chord was missing. We had the first and the 3rd from the on set of Bud Isaacs incredible action. But we were missing the 2nd.

When Lloyd Green came up with it, I was soo pleased. And there is NO way I would ever give up the F lever.

Only one other change is as necessary in my book and that is the 3rd inversion of a minor chord. Yes, we have it with pedals B and C. But it requires one to move off of A and B to get to B and C. I always felt there should be a better way.

When BE came up with the lowering of string 6 a whole tone AND splitting with the B pedal, I said to myself, "That's it"

And I still believe in it. In a word:

1. Three inversions of a major chord (on the same strings)

and,

2. Three inversions of a minor chord on the same strings).

make the steel guitar enter a domain where other instruments have always been. Now, when the day comes we can get any inversion of any chord, we will be complete.

And it will come. I guarantee it. It is just a matter of time. Music calls for it. Ears here it and players WILL do it; IMO.

God bless you all,

You've mentioned having to get off the A & B pedals, and going to the B&C pedals, for the minor inversion. I have a knee lever that for many years, raises my 4th & 8th strings independently. I'd be lost without its convenience, and advantages. There is no need to move off the A & B pedals, once the knee lever is in place. The combined use of the knee lever with the A & B pedals, will relieve the player of the awkward foot move, making possible a whole new world of musical expression, not heard by dancing on the B&C pedals. Using just the (B) pedal with the 4 & 8 raises will provide a 5 chord in the inversion "tree." I'm not assuming that you are not aware of these possibilities, but others may like to experiment with the change, if it hasn't been tried. The short pedals that I have developed could be used also, to resolve having to move off the A & B pedals. This would enable the player to exact greased lightning changes heard in a number of uptempo instrumentals. The knee lever that would actuate the 4th & 8th strings, has many advantages, with musical expression, over the B & C foot change. Mike Smith's fast B/C licks, and T. Brumley's "Apple Jack" are good examples where easily reachable B/C pedals come into play.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 09 March 2003 at 10:18 AM.]

I think the differences in bar presures for each string width and type must have an overall effect on individual intonations, and the great players have found their groove so to speak.
Several small mistunings that balance as a whole. Individual to each PSG and it's copedant, string brand AND player.

Not unLike the USA NTSC television standard, un-affectionately known to editors as "Never Twice The Same Color"; the good ones find a balance by feel.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 09 March 2003 at 04:32 AM.]

You are 100% correct. With this one caveat. If you do away with Pedal C, and use only the knee lever raising 4 (and possibly 8), you create a problem. Most players cannot manipulate the pedals AND a knee lever fast enough to emulate the old Jimmy Day lick using the B and C pedals. This is similar lick like JD used on Charlie Walker's hit, "Pick Me up on Your Way Down".

So, the best of both worlds is to have BOTH the C pedal And the knee lever. Which is what I do. Praise Jesus.

Donald,

Very respectfully and with much sincerity, I must state to you and to many others, that all of the extraneous "causes" of intonation problems are FAR and away overshadowed by "cabinet drop".

In other words, EVERY thing else being equal, such as bar pressure and angle, string gauges, etc etc, cannot come even close to the problems related to cabinet drop.

In a word, IF one has Zero cabinet drop, it makes all the other mentioned anomalies appear to be slim to none in comparison.

carl