If Bobbe was wrong we could all play a 2 X 4 with bailing wire through a 5 watt amp and be happy hapy happy. But he is not wrong and that is proven by how much stuff guys buy all of the time to improve there "tone".

Finally this old horse is dead, thankd BS.

Larry Behm

I have read numerous post over the years that said "tone was all in the hands". I didn't believe it then, and I don't now.

Of course hands do play a large role in the tone a given player gets. But there are myriads of other things that affect tone. ANY listener with an ear above a "tin ear" would KNOW Buddy Emmons was NOT playing his Emmons if he played a Fender 400!

And you are correct about the number and types of equipment players purchase to enhance and change the tone of their guitars.

The Boss DD-3 alone is a good example. It vastly changes the sound coming out of a given amp. And the stories about various PU's that players did and did not like is further indication that it is NOT all in the hands.

I know of no one, or anything that would make an older MSA sound like and Emmons' P/P and vice versa, regardless of who played them.

We have many choices and most of them sound really good, but they all sound slightly different. That's why different players play different brands -- they feel that their choice conveys the sound they hear in their head, perhaps better than others. There are also playability and maintenance issues, but this thread is on tone so I'll avoid that tangent.

What really slays me is the folks who are only comfortable thinking in BLACK and WHITE. xxxxxx is a yyyyyy player. I love owning more than one brand. It gives me a different feeling to show up at a gig with my old Emmons than with my brand new Fessy. I love both guitars and both sound great. Just DIFFERENT.
There IS a reason why some players still play 30+ year old Emmons, Sho-Bud, ZB, etc. guitars -- there's nothing made today that sounds exactly like them.

Just my opinion.

That's how I compare the difference between the guitars themselves. Another technique I like to use is to plug directly into a studio board through a good reference amp and studio monitors with NO EQ or FX. That gives a solid reference point on what the guitar + pickup sounds like. You'll get the best comparison if you plug directly in with no volume pedal. Fortunately, I happen to have that combination in my music room, but it's the first thing I do whenever someone brings a new guitar to my house or in the rare event that I buy one for myself.

How much "stuff" do you have, and how does it affect your tone?

"And you probably didn't think I did, but I heard, you say that tone is just a four letter word."

-?-

Let's see.....

Don't Guitars have a knob for that function?

Why not put one in a rack mount in a "suitcase nuke"? It couldn't be more than 4-500 bucks.

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Bill Ford

[This message was edited by Bill Ford on 27 March 2003 at 04:42 PM.]

I used to have 2 amps. My music man which I still own, and a Peavey LTD 400. There was no way I could ever get the same sound out of both. The Peavey was better for steel, but not as good for guitar. The Music Man is more of an all purpose amp. Not the best steel amp, but good enough, and my guitar and mandolin always sounded much better through it than through the Peavey.

If meant to be taken absolutely literally, then this must mean that "any certain guitar and amp setup will have the same exact tone no matter who plays it, given that they don't touch the amp's settings"? I find that hard to believe or that someone of Bobbe's experience would suggest that. So, maybe the statement should be taken to mean, "any certain guitar and amp setup will have the same tone no matter who plays it, given that they don't touch the amp's settings, but MODIFIED by the individual player's execution", where, I assume we can define execution as those things particular to each player's technique, such as the angle of his picks to his strings, the distance from the bridge in relation to where he picks the strings, how hard he picks, etc. Right? So we're saying these execution techniques are responsible for making players sound different, such as two different players having different tones when taking turns on the same guitar and amp. OK.

My next question is, what are the actual instruments or tools performing the manual techniques involved with these varying forms and styles of execution? Wouldn't that be the.....HANDS?

"Tone's in the guitar....tone's in the execution.... tone's in the hands"......

Yes.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 28 March 2003 at 08:35 AM.]

Even the size of the room and the number of people inside can make a difference.

Recently I sat in on Slim Lattimer's Emmons Push Pull. I liked the tone (a lot) but it sounded nothing like my MSA. Same hands, different gear, different tone.

Regarding my earlier posting and the topic of hands, execution and all, I was thinking more in terms of laboratory-like conditions; a steel and amp in a room, with different players taking turn and no one touching anything but their hands on the strings. In these conditions different players will often have different tones because of their execution, or hands, whatever one wishes to call it.

Speaking of cables, you brought up one of my pet peeves. Practically no one seems to give them much thought, they just buy whatever's available. I discovered some years ago that different cables really affect your tone. I can't stand to play through anything but my own homemade cables, and yes I've had some of my musician friends A/B them and they can hear it too. At first I thought I was imagining it.

***************************************

I received this email from Bobbe Seymour and he gave me permission to post it. Here it is, cut-&-pasted exactly as he wrote it:

***********************************

Jim,
I agree with your post, I was misquoted slightly. I'm not sure where this person got that I said exactly what he said I said,possibly from my direct e-mail posts. But he's close, VERY close. You are dead on. However, good hands won't make up for a sucky sounding guitar, I don't care if it's Buddy Emmons playing it, As you said, it helps if everything is working together. I'm no sure the hands are an equal third though. Most folks have a problem separating tone from good execution. They are two totally different things that somehow blend together in a lot of peoples minds.
Another thing that's interesting here is that most of my friends that aren't agreeing here, are playing guitars that are known to not sound very good. A couple of them are missing the point altogether, the greatest amp in the world won't help a bad guitar anymore than great hands can. It takes all three to be a great sounding steel player, Thank you Jim, You are correct, as you usually are.
If you wish to post this e-mail to the forum, it's fine with me as I won't be posting on this thread directly.
Your buddy,

Bobbe Seymour
Steel Guitar Nashville
123 Midtown Court
Hendersonville, TN 37075
(615) 822-5555 www.steelguitar.net
***************************

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 28 March 2003 at 12:32 PM.]

"Timbre" is the parameter that describes {for example} Vince Gils voice, unplugged, accapela.

In our case "Timbre" is what a steel sounds like unplugged.

"Tone" is what Vince Gils voice sounds like coming through a Mic>Sound System>Speakers.
(Sound System=Mic(pickup)/cords/effects/preamps/amps/ect)

The "Tone" of Vince's particular vocal "Timbre" may sound noticably different if he switches Mic's... or Sound System or Speakers.

In our case, "Tone" is what the Timbre of a particular steel sounds like coming through a Pickup>Sound System>Speaker(s).

The "Tone" of our steels particular "Timbre" may sound noticably different if we switch Pickups... or Sound System or Speakers.

I'm guessing Porter Waggoner (for example) sang through many different Mic's and Sound Systems over the years at the GOO. The "Tone" may have changed, but you knew it was Porter (and not Vince) because of his unique vocal "Timbre" (kinda like a thumb print... no two are exactly the same).

Most singers I've known have tried many Mic's, sound systems/speakers over the course of their singing careers (and will undoubtably show up to a gig with some new vocal pickup (mic), or other "Tone" enhancing toy in the future).

Most Steelers I've known have tried many different Pickups/Sound Systems/Speakers over the years (and will undoubtably show up to a gig with some new...)

Even ones who play Push-Pulls!?!

Go Figer?!

------------------
Click on the pic!

If you listen to Buddy's recording of Four Wheel Drive, for example, he's playing it on a Fender which couldn't be further from an Emmons, tonewise, but it is clearly Emmons -- Buddy Emmons, that is.

Yes, the overall SOUND is a composite of the player's choice of notes, technique, the amp, AND the guitar. My point earlier was that the only way to separate out the guitar's contribution is when the same player is playing through the same amp using different guitars. At that point, all the other stuff cancels out and you can hear the nuances that the guitar itself contributes. That's what I think, anyway, for whatever that's worth.

quote:

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However, good hands won't make up for a sucky sounding guitar...

---

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SUAS U' PHIOB
Geo

Example, I just sold a Steel guitar that I didn't believe in on this forum last week,
Very good condition , single 10, 3-1 and it went for $99.95. Was it worth more? YES! I'm sure I could have gotten four hundred dollars for it, but I didn't believe in it, I personally didn't like the brand or the model. I want to have the reputation of being honest about what I sell, If it's bad, you'll know it cuz I'll tell ya". And it will be cheap. I try not to ever get this kind and model of guitar but,I do, once in a while, and it WILL be near free when it leaves here.

Just because I sell guitars, you don't HAVE TO "respectfully disagree" with me.
When does someone that sells guitars, or anything for that matter have to be "respectfully disagreed with"????? Does being a saleman disqualify me from being a good judge of tone? I guess arguing all day selling stuff hurts my ears!(put this in the humor section)

Your buddy,
Bobbe (no ear salesman) Seymour

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 29 March 2003 at 09:53 PM.]

quote:

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Bobby, if what you say is true then why do you use the equipment that you use? I've made three lap steels and one console and whatever you use from the nut material to the bridge material all makes a difference.

---

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 30 March 2003 at 10:43 AM.]

(and I tried so hard to stay off this thread)

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 30 March 2003 at 10:37 AM.]