I say this because when one lowers the E's on our E9th copedent, it is the same as plopping down on the bottom neck, EXCEPT for what you said about the D note and the other 3 strings. So I see it is a natural evolution rather than an invention.

Note, I would be sad IF anyone perceived hurt from my words. By that, IF someone did truly invent it, then I stand corrected, and sincerely apologize,

Es lowered,7th string F#-G,A,B&C pedals...

With A/B pedals down and F#-G lever engauged,from the 7th back it was the same note for note as C6 with the 8th (boo wah)pedal.I think that was one reason I never learned much C6.There is a lot of stuff there for just about anything you /I wanted to play,country/southern rock at that time. I now have an S12,5+5 standard E9 with G#/E on 11 and 12.

The only one I was aware of at that time had anything different than E9/C6(pedals)was Mr. Anderson.

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Bill Ford

[This message was edited by Bill Ford on 14 November 2003 at 10:40 AM.]

I've been using various permutations of Bb6, B6, and E9/B6 since about 1975 and have never really played a 10-string tuning. I got the idea of putting the C6 changes (rather than Reece's Bb6 changes at the time which were/are somewhat different) on the bottom from Winnie Winston's book in '75 or so and about that time I went from Bb6 to B6 as a base tuning. By the time Jeff Newman's universal teaching material came out I had been using essentially the same tuning for more than a year. The one thing I can crow about a bit is putting E to D on the 8th string on a knee lever, as a dual purpose way to get the P6 C6 change AND get the equivalent (well, almost) of the 9th string on E9.

I certainly don't claim to have invented the tuning, but I was one of the earliest practitioners, I suppose. I can't imagine playing any other tuning. 10-string E9 and C6 seem so limited to me that I always go back to the universal.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 November 2003 at 11:05 AM.]

I appreciate those of you who are so kind as to suggest I was involved in the evolutionary process of the universal tuning. I will address this subject in detail and post it on this forum soon.

Also, we need to determine our definition of a universal tuning.

Mine is:
A universal tuning is a single set of notes and pedal/lever changes that duplicate those of the standard 10 string E9 and C6 changes.

Was Julian Tharpe's E9/6 or Zane Beck's tuning a universal tuning? Not a very effective one by my definition. They are VERY MUSICALLY LOGICAL and are great tunings, but they would not allow the player to read tab written for E9 or C6 without really putting on the thinking cap. That was one main objective for the tuning I play - to be able to easily relate to players and teachers who play E9 and C6.

I recall that he wrote at the end of the article, "What is one fret among friends?"

Roger

[This message was edited by Roger Shackelton on 15 November 2003 at 01:24 AM.]

Where did you get the initial idea for the tuning?

I'm sure that Tom's articles got a lot of people thinking about the idea.

But back to the E9th universal tuning. I do know that Maurice Anderson and I did a lot of communicating back when he was working on his Bb6th universal tuning and I was working on my A6th universal. Reece went on to perfect his universal tuning by playing it brilliantly. I went on to play my A6th for years and loved it, getting fine E9th sounds from it (I and Reece raised our third tones on the basic tuning to get into a 9th; his being into an Eb9th and mine into a D9th). Regarding Julian Tharpe, whom I knew quite well, he came up with his tuning a few years later, and it was much different from both of our tunings. Julian had two necks combined into one (about 24 strings as I recall) and it was hard to tell where one bank of strings ended and the other one began.

I had never heard of an E9th universal tuning until Jeff Newman developed it. I knew Jeff well and we talked about his tuning often. Jeff had been challenged by one of his students to play Buddy Emmons' intro to Night Life on an E9th. Jeff got most of it, but realized that he would need a 12-string guitar. He got one, figured out how he could do it and expanded the tuning to include all the basic pedal changes on his modified (no lower D string) E9th tuning. Jeff's basic tuning and the layout of the changes needed to duplicate the C6th pedal changes, is the basic copedent for today's "Universal" E9th. Until someone with more accurate information can come forth, I would have to conclude that Jeff Newman is the "father" of the modern universal E9th. ...Tom

[This message was edited by Tom Bradshaw on 16 November 2003 at 06:03 PM.]

But the credit for the universal concept has to go to Reece for the same reason. He was the first player to hit Nashville, where all the players lived demonstrating his MSA's. Players were as impressed with his ability to play licks from both tunings on one neck as they were the MSA. He also traveled all over the country demonstrating for MSA as well as being one of the most recorded Jingle steel guitarists in the country. It was his musicianship that exposed the possibilities of the universal concept to all which spawned many to experiment with the same universal concept.

I know that there were alot of players experimenting with the same thoughts. Its all math as Reece very well stated, but its always the first one to the bank who wins. Its also interesting that only Jeff and Reece's tunings have stood the test of time. Probably because they offered less transition time from the D10.

Ideas without exposure are just ideas. It takes exposure to gain acceptance for an idea. The pedals were around since the 30's but Bud Isaacs exposed the possibilities to the world.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 17 November 2003 at 06:32 AM.]

Which of the two tunings is the most widely accepted now?

And which is the most musically powerful?
This could be either versatility in common useage or brute chordal or linear ablities.

I was just playing Stephane's U-12 and it's very much a different animal than my D-10.
It also is his own copedant, on a Uni tuning.

I liked it, but would want one in the studio for a month before I could realy feel at home on it. In his hands it really does cross jazz to country in partial seconds.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 17 November 2003 at 04:40 PM.]

I think Al Marcus' ability to deviate from the standard E9 and C6 somewhat was also an excellent attempt to provide an alternative to the standards.

But to not bring to everyone's attention one of the pioneers to the tuning, the Gentleman from Mississippi, Bill Stafford, would nearly be categorized as a crime. His work in that area is certainly not ignored in this house.

Larry Bell's website and the explanation of the standard universal tuning has been a huge help to many who have attempted the change from the doubles and I personally have used it in teaching students. I am currently only teaching Universal to my students.

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

In any case, what I'm STILL missing is DATES. Reece and Tom (and others) came forth with some really interesting tidbits, but without a timeframe to place them into, it's difficult to understand the WHEN along with the WHAT and WHO.

The other missing piece as has been pointed out, is Bill Stafford's role in the history of the universal tuning. Any recollections for us, Mr. Bill????

But I don't think we need to let the technicalities of patent laws guide us. Maybe "invention" is too strong a word. We are really just interested in the history here. Call it invention or call it first implementation, or whatever. But I think it is completely legitimate for us to be interested in who first applied and publicized the use of each string addition or deletion and each pedal and knee change that led to the modern universal, just as we are interested in each individual change that Bud Isaacs, Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day and others came up with to give us the standard E9 and C6 copedents.

It seems we are getting a consensus that Reece, Tom Bradshaw and others were using some elements of the modern uni, and that Jeff Newman chose some things from them and thought up his own modifications and that is what gelled to become the basic framework for today's unis.

I have collected as many uni copedents as I have been able to find, and believe me there is no standard. But there is a family that all have certain elements: the top 8 strings are identical to standard E9; the 9th D string has been removed and the D is found on one or more knees by lowering the E or raising the B; there are standard E9 ABC pedals with levers for lowering and raising the Es and lowering the 2nd string (sometimes called the F, E and D levers); with the E lower lever, strings 4 through 12 are a B6 tuning identical to the standard 10-string C6 neck; levers give you pedals 4 and 6; and pedals 5, 7, and 8 are there somewhere. That is pretty much Jeff Newman's universal setup. Everything else is non-standard and personal.

Remember pedals were used in the 30's. They caught on in the 50's because of Isaac's musicianship. I'll say it again, Maurice exposed the possibilities to the community and then the minds were off and running with their own versions. But it all started with Reece. Anyway you want to slice it after that is anyones guess.

Fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 18 November 2003 at 06:13 PM.]