|
Author
|
Topic: Who invented E9/B6 Universal?
|
Franklin
Member From:
|
posted 18 November 2003 07:11 PM
profile
Fred and Larry,I should say that Reece lowered the thirds a whole tone and raised them a half tone. He lowered the root a half tone. and the fifth a whole tone on the Bb6th tuning. Those pedals provide many E9th sounding country licks. Reece is the first player I ever heard do this in the 60's which is what I believe inspired the universal concept. I would love to hear Bill Staffords, David Wright's or anyone elses take on this as well. Maybe between all of our memories we can find the correct historical past. I am very passionate about this because Maurice was one of my key inspirations.
Its ashame that there isn't a hit record like "Slowly" to time capsule the Universals beginnings. Most of Reece's early work was heard on jingles. Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 18 November 2003 at 08:47 PM.] |
Fred Shannon
Member From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas
|
posted 19 November 2003 02:59 PM
profile
Well, maybe this will help...
In 1968 Sonny Curtis helped me with an E Major tuning in order to overcome a motor nerve malfunction in my right hand as a result of being wounded in Nam. I was tuned from hi to low as follows: E, B, G#, E, B, G#, E, B, G#, E. 'A' pedal pulled all B's to C#, 'B' pedal pulled all G#'s to A, 'C' pedal pulled 1st and 4th strings E to F#. That's all I had on an old Stringmaster that a machinist in Duluth, Mn made for me. It worked for me and I didn't hit the "clams" the 7th string F# gave me on the E9. In early 1969 I ordered a S-10 MSA Classic from Reece and asked him to see if he could give me something that would work around my problem and also help me with the C6 sound....Here's what was put on the guitar and I picked it up in March 1969: There was no change in the A and B pedals. C# was substituted for the 2nd string B. "C' pedal pulled the 2nd C# and 5th B to D for the 7th. Pedals 4, 5, 6 were added and served the same function as 5, 6, 7 of the C6 tuning but of course to the B tuning with the E's dropped to Eb. They also added 4 knees: LKL dropped all the G#'s to G (open minor), LKR raised the E's to F's, RKL raised all the E's to F#, and RKR dropped the E's to Eb.I still use this tuning exclusively except we've added the LKV dropping the 5th from B to Bb. I think you would probably have to agree that this is a take off of the Universal but on a 10 string axe and as I stated this guitar was picked up from MSA in the middle of March 1969 and I still have it. It was put together for me by Reece and company and one would have to imagine that he had been using something similiar to come up with it.. And if you look at the tuning, the grips that a normal person makes are there, but with my index and middle finger taped together with the proper pick spacing (they're the ones that don't work too well) and my ring finger picking singles, I manage to get by without too many clams. So I would say that Reece was using a Universal tuning of sorts earlier than 69. I'm sure Reece remembers this because it's the same basic tuning on my new Millennium. Any thoughts. FRED ------------------
The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real [This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 19 November 2003 at 03:27 PM.]
|
Fred Shannon
Member From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas
|
posted 20 November 2003 08:05 AM
profile
As I stated previously, I use Larry Bell's website information extensively for my students. This info is very valuable and easy to understand but I have heard over time that Sierra either formulated or had someone originate an article or booklet on their uni tuning and had it published. I've been unable to locate it and if anyone knows the story, if there is one, could you email me....thanks I like to give my students as much as I can before they become totally confused and go home .....LOL  Fred ------------------
The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
|
posted 21 November 2003 07:16 PM
profile
This is an interesting thread. I might get a few dates here. Paul Franklin nailed it pretty good.I have always felt that if Reece had went to A6 going to D9, or B6 going to E9, his tuning would have been more readily understood by the average player. Reece Anderson is the first one that I ever heard play a universal tuning.(1968) He used Bb6 open tuning with the pulls that Paul mentioned to get Eb9. Raised the 3rds to Eb. If he had moved the open tuning a half tone higher, he would have had E9 by raising the 3rds.
My first MSA D12 that I got from Reece had the Bb6 universal that he used on the bottom neck. Date late 1968. I have a record that, he recorded, from him in 1968 using that tuning. I saw him in 1969 at Tom Bradshaw's First westcoast Pedal steel show in Napa, Calif. He played Jazz and country tunes on that single neck. sounds of both 6th tuning and E9 tuning .
I brought my Electra-Harp over at Tom's invitation and played the old Johnny Greene tune "Laura", but I did it on a straight E6 tuning. I did not play E9 at that time. As far as I can remember Jeff Newman was the first one to make the E9/B6 viable and popular...Reece and Jeff...They were both Pioneers in their own distinctive way............al
------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/ |
Stephen Gregory
Member From:
|
posted 21 November 2003 07:54 PM
profile
This is what a REAL Steel Guitar forum is all about! Thanks to Paul, Tommy, Larry Bell, Al Marcus for your intelligent and informative responses. |
David Wright
Member From: Modesto .Ca USA.
|
posted 21 November 2003 08:52 PM
profile
I started playing the Steel Guitar in Jan of 1970 and began taking lessons from Maurice. I had moved to Dallas to learn to play. Even though I had been around it all my life, I didn't get the bug to play until I was 19. My Dad was working with Maurice and Tom at MSA, so I sold most everything I had and moved to Dallas. It's been almost been 34 years now.Anyway, I started with the Bb6th tunning, it was what Maurice played and I liked what he was doing. Now is where I hope I remember the tunning he had me on, as Paul said, flatting your 3rd(D)and flatting your root (Bb) you now have your E to an A change. You just lower to get it. At this time another steel player named Billy Braddy was playing this tunning also. we tuned (I think) the top note to (A#), and raised it a half tone, we used a .010 or .009, it was really up there, by doing that change you could get the same sound you got with your 3,4,5, grip on E9th pedals down and lowering your E'S, it was a 7th. This is what we played then. Here again, if I remember right. After a coulpe of years on that setup, Maurice came up with raising our 3rds a half tone, and bingo!!!! You had a Eb 9th. At the same time we tuned our first string the same as the 3rd. Now as you look at it, you have two notes tuned the same, but, when you raise the 3rd your first string now becomes a chromatic in your tunning. What happens is two strings get turned around, in the Eb9th mode my second string is your third string, and your second chromatic is my first, very simple right???? Well I think so! Now, my first 3 pedals do the same as your A,B,C pedals do onthe E9th , and when I lower the 3rds back I am now lowering my E's..my fourth pedal is hald of the PF pedal, the other is on an up, I have many of the 9Th tunning changes, I think Paul is right on when he said Jeff created the Universal tunning which he is known for, it makes it easy for a D-10 player to make the switch over, But, if you look at the Newman tunning, he just reverses the way Maurice did his, where in a 6th mode open, Jeff is a 9th open, the two tunnings have a lot of similar characteristic.. We {Bb} players have a few different changes that your standard C6 players don't always use...If you listen to Maurice play a C6th, you really would think he's plaing a Bb, his cord voicings are done with grips that most steel players don't even know, they're spread way out, but I believe that's what puts Maurice's sound his very own. It's really not so much the Bb6th tunning as it is in his approach to playing cord voicings. This is not a "Maurice Anderson for President Posting" it is "my" take on the Bb universal tunnihg and the man who created it....
I might also add Jr Knight plays a Bb6th as most of you know, and I will bet my last dollar you wouldn't know the difference between the Bb6th and the E9th with your back to him!!!
one more, Bud Carter, plays Bb6th, and plays some of the prettiest country you'll ever hear and cords to kill for....
As we say Bb is were it's at !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
------------------
DavidWright.us M.S.A. MillenniumS-12 9 & 6Bb is where it's at! Peavey-2000-PX-300
|
Andy Alford
Member From: Alabama
|
posted 22 November 2003 11:22 AM
profile
I was told that if you will check the International Steel Guitar Assocation magazine from 1967 there is an articile about Bob Simmons and his E9/B6 Universal.He said that he came up with it before then. |
Andy Alford
Member From: Alabama
|
posted 22 November 2003 11:35 AM
profile
I was told that if you check one of the International Assocation magazines from 1967,it reports Bob Simmon's E9/B6 Universal.Bob said that he came up with it before then.Eddy Long's guitar was the first, that Bob set up the Universal on.After that he set up many guitars with his E9/B6 Universal.I hope this helps.[This message was edited by Andy Alford on 22 November 2003 at 02:45 PM.] |
bob drawbaugh
Member From: scottsboro, al. usa
|
posted 23 November 2003 09:43 AM
profile
Andy I have tahe news letter. I think it is a lot latter than 1668 or 69. I think that article was around 1976 0r 77. I will get it out and see. The setup is the same as the one on Carter web site. A 5X5 setup.[This message was edited by bob drawbaugh on 23 November 2003 at 09:44 AM.] |
Franklin
Member From:
|
posted 23 November 2003 10:53 AM
profile
Andy.....I don't believe the International magazine existed before the early 70's. I saw Reece in 67 so the uni thing had to start before then. The problem in the 60's is that there were no steel clubs or steel shows--there was only the DJ convention in Nashville to demonstrate new products and ideas and no reports of the shows were made in newsletters.
Paul
|
John Floyd
Member From: Somewhere between Camden County , NC and Saluda S.C.
|
posted 23 November 2003 05:20 PM
profile
Bill Stafford's input on the Universal Evolution. http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum15/HTML/005272.html [This message was edited by John Floyd on 24 November 2003 at 04:23 PM.] |
Andy Alford
Member From: Alabama
|
posted 25 November 2003 04:40 PM
profile
Guys
Why not call Bob Simmons and he will be glad to share with you his facts. |
slick
Member From: Calhoun Georgia
|
posted 25 November 2003 05:37 PM
profile
Andy,
I played steel in Birmingham Alabama from 1970 untill 1979 and knew Bob Simmons very well.In 1974 I asked him to build me a S12 which he did and what a fine steel guitar but it was an extended E9 not a "Universal".During the nine years that i knew Bob i never heard him play a "Universal"
tuning.Julian played there in the early 70's im not really sure about his tuning but man he was a super player.Wayne |
Bill Stafford
Member From: Gulfport,Ms. USA
|
posted 26 November 2003 05:07 AM
profile
Great information in this article! This interest in the "universal" is intriquing.
The 14 string tuning on my steel allows me to play all the strings with the exact pedal/knee lever set-up that I had on my old standard double 12 A.J. Smith pedal steel without any "re-learning" of any mechanical relationships, grips or groups or learned patterns of playing.
The "universal" tunings I had seen up till then were ones using the E string lowering to D to obtain the seventh chord in the lower register. I did not like the effect of loosing that particular note in the chord structure to obtain this seventh chord, ala with the standard ninth string D. I thought that if I just removed the D string(#9) and installed the tenth string in its place, pull it to the D note with the same lever that lowered my high D# to D, it would be the same note and in the same position when I wanted that pretty seventh chord and the sound of the chord would be "going-up" to reach this "travelling chord" versus going down with the E string. Just a more pleasing sound for me. And then too, the D string was never "in the way" with pedals up or down. And with the extra Es,Bs and G# strings to bottom out he chord big, fat, major 7 chords were then available in the E9 tuning out of the B6 structure and on the same fret as in the E9 tuning. I then called Sierra and asked them if their changer could pull the tenth string (038) B to a D note and reach this note at the same time as the higher G# which was being lowered half tone to D. Pedals one and two then could pull the added Bs to C# and the added G#s to A. Now, everything "happening" in your E9 higher chord combinations of E, B and G# notes would be simultaneously occuring in the lower register. Like having a key board with more keys for your left hand.
Don Christensen informed me that it would. Asked him to build my first 14 string unit.
They did a great job and it worked fine. All my standard C6 pedals worked fine out of the B6 tuning and really enhanced the E9 chord tuning also. I wanted a change lok installed to hold the Es to Eb so I could "attack" both tunings as two different tunings. But the lok is not really necesssary for talents like Joe Wright, Eddy Long, etc. Those guys can play anything with any tuning as can Buddy E and lots of others. Just a matter of what you desire.
The B6 pedals and levers are all the same as I had on my 12 string C6 tuning. On this 12 string tuning I had a high A as my first string and I added a low F as no.12 per a tuning chart I saw that Buddy Emmons had on one of his guitars.
The low E on my 14 string corresponded to this low F, and it became F on the first fret. Now I had C6 on the first fret and my string no. 13 was representative of the tenth string in the C6 tuning. From this string, if you play in groups or grips, you can count up from the thirteenth string(using it as your learned string ten, nine, eight etc all the way up and all the strings are the same). You will then discover that you have an "extra E and A note in the C6 chord in the upper register of this 14 string tuning and that only enhances the fullness of the chord.
The high A I had on my 12th string was added to the first string of this E9 tuning when I installed another G# note as my new string no.1. I was not aware of all the full chords in E9 that would develop due to this added string on top of the tuning. Sevenths , ninths, elevenths and thirteenths were now available in the E tuning. (My high G# string is not pulled to any other note. It just sits there and works fine in both tunings). And I like the C chord being on the first fret much more than I did in the open position. Just my preference.
Many other chords and pleasing sounds developed in both tunings as the B chord is more compatible to the E (top neck) than the C(bottom neck). Now, the changes in the B6 tuning neatly effect the E tuning. One examble, using both E9 and C6 pedals in this tuning will allow you to "walk" the 038 B note from B to C to C# to D holding the three strings above it in the same chord, and you can do that in any key, or fret. Pedal no 8, standard C6 set up raises this B to C (same change as on the C6) and it also lowers my thirteenth string to G# (same as the C to A change in C6 tuning) and now you can see that this note G# will really enhance the E chord structure in the E9 tuning. Lots more, but I know all of you can readidly see mutual combinations in this "universal" tuning.
To me, the term"universal" implies that the tunings are basically the same with no losses of changes to the notes and/or pedal structure. Works for me. Normal evolution is what is happening here. As the mechanical changer design has improved over the past years, many combinations of tunings are now available.
My EXCEL has the capability of six raises and four lowers to each string. This allows my pedal set up to be very, very easy to play as all the "slaves" and double and triple pulls are not required. Very easy to tune and the keyless feature enhances the stay in tune requirement. Also it has allowed me to increase the scale length to 25" on the Sierra guitar I played and now the scale length of my EXCEL is 25 1/2" with all the same ga. strings. The ball end of my strings attach to the gearless tuner head versus the changer, thereby eliminating that wrap of the ball end located in close proximity to the top of the radius of the changer fingers.
And I could not and would not venture to say "who was first " in any of this. It is done by all of us out of love for the sounds of this instrument. And if I could play like Jerry Byrd, I would not need any of this mechanical stuff for assistance. I put the blame as to why we have this pedal steel guitar mechanical marvel on the shoulders of Jerry Byrd, as none can obtain the notes and chords as he can. Thanks Jerry!!!Thanks for all this to everyone. Bill Stafford PS: When I was at Sierra, we built a 14 string guitar for Julian. The first seven strings were tuned to E9, bottom seven were tuned to E6. Julian called "his" tuning E96. Worked for him, and if you ever had the opportunity to see him play, you would have know instantly that this is the "way" they are supposed to be tuned. This guitar was very, very easy to play as the pedals and levers were not loaded with multiple changes. Julian, you are missed. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
|
posted 26 November 2003 08:05 AM
profile
Wow, Bill, thanks for chiming in here. We are really getting this story filled out. What year was it when you contacted Sierra and started concocting the 14-string? Your logic is marvelous and sure makes a great case for a 14-string.P.S. Say hi to Mississippi for me. I grew up in North Mississippi. Still have kin scattered around the state and in Slidell. Some year I have to come down for the steel guitar show. |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
|
posted 26 November 2003 08:18 AM
profile
Seems like some folks are confusing the E9th-B6th universal tuning with the 12 string B-flat 6th tuning that was made famous by a couple of great jazz and swing players from Texas.
One tuning can be played like a commercial E9th tuning. The other just plain can't. Making great music can and is accomplished on both tunings, but one leans toward more commercial sounds, the other is a unlimited jazz and swing tuning. The latter was developed by the great players of the mid- south west.
These two tunings shouldn't be confused as they are both quite different.
An experienced opinion. |
Franklin
Member From:
|
posted 26 November 2003 12:09 PM
profile
Bobbe, You seem to be the only one confusing the issue.No confusion here. The Bb6th (Your friend, Reece) was the first to incorporate the Isaacs sound in a 6th based tuning. It was also the predecessor to the E9th/B6th. Also informed & experienced Just as the E9th developed from a simple one to four change. So did the universal concept. The E9th did not start out where it is today. It evolved and So did the uni concept. Can anyone come up with someone before Reece that introduced the Isaacs sound to a sixth based tuning which so far is the beginning of the universal concept. Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 26 November 2003 at 12:11 PM.] |
bob drawbaugh
Member From: scottsboro, al. usa
|
posted 26 November 2003 01:39 PM
profile
Bobbe they are the same. If you look at Reece's tuning and Jeff Newmans tuning you will find only one or two pulls are different. If you hear JR Knight play his Uni Bb6th you can't tell it's not E9th. The For same for David Wright. An unexperienced opion. |
Franklin
Member From:
|
posted 26 November 2003 03:21 PM
profile
Bob....You posted more than enough information to correct any confusion Bobbe created. Well done....Its fun to needle old Bobbe when he gets confused .....Paul |
Scott Henderson
Member From: Eldon, Missouri, USA
|
posted 26 November 2003 10:25 PM
profile
From reading all thes post the only conclusion I can come to is ...Can you really find the origins of the uni??
And I ask this because their have been so many variations of a "concept" It may be impossible to determine that.. not that that is a bad thing..actually it is the beauty of the uni concept.( I feel) It is a concept that will only go as far as the imagination and philosophy of the player.This persons tuning works for them as that persons tuning works for them.etc etc etc...To take it even further...teaching philosophies differ regarding the uni as well...some teach to combine the E9 and B6 I don't I treat them as two seperate entities I guess what I am saying is the universal tuning is well pardon the pun, universital! and that is what makes it a very intriging instrument. where did it come???Here's another therory. Maybe it came from players who didn't want to play triple necks and wanted to advance to pedals and knees.How many different tuning combinations were there on those bad boys??? and how many different styles were they trying to achieve?? ARE YOU SEEING IT YET???The steel guitar is one of very few instruments that is constantly EVOLVING!!!It's mechanics, it's philosophy, it's whole state of being. It's always changing. A six string guitar has a main tuning and some alternative one. The biggest change in it has been pickups and neck developement. But the steel has been a never ending cycle.
I would also have to say the universal has a foggy history in part because it has not been the mainstream but it has always been there and I for one am glad it has become a more prominent part f the steel evolution. Don't get me I am totally excited about this new interest in the uni. I have owned one now for 21 years! BUt I also have a D-10.WHy? Because, as I have said in other posts, I am totally focused on learning everything I can about steel guitar!!!
I don't want ot be a e9 player or a c6 player or a B6 player I want to be a STEEL PLAYER!!!I'm rambling...I'm out>>>>thanksfor reading------------------
Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com |
David Wright
Member From: Modesto .Ca USA.
|
posted 26 November 2003 11:28 PM
profile
I'm with you PF, Bob pretty much un~Confused it , well atleast for  now ------------------
DavidWright.us M.S.A. MillenniumS-12 9 & 6Bb is where it's at! Peavey-2000-PX-300
| |
The Steel Guitar Forum
