I tune to about 441, depending on the guitar. I tune out the cabinet drop, tuning the E's to 440 with A&B down. When you release the pedals the E's will go slightly sharp -- usually 4 to 8 cents (441-442). I tune B's to match the E's and go for beatless fifths and octaves.

It's something between straight up ET and Newman's chart which is pretty much beatless, as I recall. I tolerate the beats to get better consistency with different pedal and lever combinations. I tune the thirds as sharp as I can stand them -- about 439. My F's end up about 438 or 437. Works for me.

I can tune to the Newman chart and play ok, but there are some sour combos and the A+F position is way south of the fret. ET is too radical for my ear but something in between is what's best for me.

Jeff Newman came up with it, and a number of players use it just as he charted it. He tunes his E's (on E9th) and his C's (on C6) to 442.5. And everything else is pretty much JI with a few exceptions.

According to him, it just puts the bar over the frets when playing in a band. I never gave it a thought, until a player friend of mine was over at my house one day and he said, "carl, do you realize you are playing quite sharp of the frets?"

Upon looking closer, he was correct. All those years, I never noticed it. Then I tried Jeff's 442.5 thing, and sure enough, I started playing right over the frets.

Why?

I have a few theories, but the one I feel is more true, most would not agree with, but for whatever its worth here goes.

It is the "thirds" that are the killers whether we play ET or JI or some where in between. Since some instruments such as regular guitars and pianos "thirds" are sharp of ours (most of us tune JI), it makes us play sharp of the frets, since it is them dang thirds that clash the most.

Also, cabinet drop plays a part. But I don't believe it can all be attributed to it. So the combination of the two seems to make sense to me.

That is my opinion. Until I hear a more plausible explanation, I will hold to it.

carl

I do this for the very same reason that Carl stated..I noticed when playing with other instruments whether it was guitars, keyboards etc..If I tuned my E's to 440 I had to play with the bar a little ahead of the fret marker to sound in tune with the other instruments..

At the time I had never seen the Newman chart..One night I got tired of playing sharp with the bar so I pulled my E's up a little without the use of a tuner and tuned the rest of the strings to them.. This helped but I still had to play with the bar sharp..So I took the E's up a bit more and retuned the other strings to them..

Now I could play directly over the fret mark and sounded in tune with the rest of the band.
When I got home Later that night I hooked up my tuner and recorded the pitch of all of the strings..I discovered I had about 442 on the E's and so on and so forth..

From that night on I tune the E's to 442..This has always worked for me with many different steels, strings, bars etc.

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Jerry Wallace-2001 Zum: D-10,8+6, "98 Zum: D-10,8+8,Nashville 1000,Session 500 ,Session 400 head only amp,Tubefex,ProfexII, Artesia, New Mexico
http://www.jerrywallacemusic.com

The rule followed by most instruments when tuning to a grand piano is to center the root notes of stringed instruments to the octave that is unison to your instruments strings.

The debate is this: "which octave A or E note does the majority of the steel licks we all play blend the best with?" Consider this and/or test it out for yourself. If a Bass were tuned to the notes above middle A it would sound totally sharp and out of tune to the piano because it was tuned to the wrong octave of the piano. The steel is a tenor intrument so why tune to the lower middle A? Violinists choose the higher octaves for intonation as should we. The steel has virtually the same sonic range as a violin.

The next A above middle A on a grand piano is tuned to 882 which is 441. The E note in that octave is unison to our open E. The E note in that octave is also graduating sharp of that octaves "A note" 441.

Tuning instruments to the root note E is the way most tune. 441.5 puts the open E in pretty exact with the grand piano. Since most of what we play is above that octave 442 is a good compromise.

This is the reason I tune my 4th string (E) 442......Paul

Here is another slant on it. If one concerns themselves with "tuning to a grand piano" AND they tune JI, which note is their reference? Obviously for steel players it would be an E (E9th).

Now since (within a given octave) the piano IS tuned ET. This means the piano's E note is slightly flat of a perfect "5th". IE, not 660; rather 659.2551138

But and a very big "but", the piano's C# is very much sharp to a steel tuned JI. In fact ALMOST 5 full cycles sharp! IE, JI=550; ET=554.365262!!!

Now when we play that JI tuned steel to that ET (within a given octave) tuned piano, you have thirds clashing all night. AND it is the third of the chord which the ear is MOST sensitive to when it averages out notes in a band.

But, IF you tune the root E higher (442.5), you ALSO bring its 3rd higher by an equal amount. The end result is the steel's JI thirds are coming closer to the piano's ET thirds.

It is here where I believe that most of the problem lies. When those thirds are closer (between instruments) it sounds more in tune to the players. EVEN though the roots (and 5ths) are sharp.

Now IF, a steel player tunes ET, then you have an all new ballgame. I also believe this is why the great differences in opinions on this forum. IE, some steel players tune their thirds to straigh JI. A limited few tune them to straight ET.

BUT, and again a very big "but", MOST steel players tune their thirds between JI and ET! But even here it differs widely between players. How many times on this very forum have we seen the following comment,

"I tune my thirds as sharp as my ears can stand them"

Why??????

Think about it.

quote:

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This is the reason I tune my 4th string (E) 442......

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So which way do you prefer to be closest in tune? Pedals up or pedals down? The numbers are different depending. My guitar has very little cabinet drop,if any, thanks to it's counter force system, so numbers are a lot closer! Still I would prefer to be closest in tune pedals down than pedals up.

So, if I start by tuning the 8th string E note in perfect unison with the piano. I would have to tune the 4th sharp to string 8 because it is the next octave up. That works fine in the open position. Now the next octave E on the piano is tuned sharp to that E. But here's the problem, when I move to fret twelve on string 4 and 8 and bar it perfectly straight across the 12th fret both of my E strings sound flat because my frets did not graduate sharp as is required for a true ET temperment. And because the steel fretboard is not capable of being tempered by altering individual scale lengths, I now have the same fretting problem that JI presents.

Tempered string instruments require adjustible bridges so that as the player progresses up the neck different notes can increase their pitch seperate from the other strings notes. Due to certain notes harmonic overtones, those notes have to increase pitch at different increments. I would need different scale lengths to allow me to tune to a perfect ET temperment. Unless I can tune my fretboard it will be impossible to maintain ET all the way up the neck.

I know that guitarists and bassists have to set their intonation up the fretboard to match the piano note for note for this exact reason. Seems to be the same holds true for steel guitars as well.

I believe the adjustable bridge has to be the next evolutionary step for the instrument.....Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 March 2004 at 01:12 PM.]

I don't understand the above post. How can a steel not be in tune with a Cord-O-Vox, regardless of how the steel is tuned?

A steel guitar can easily be tuned to ET across the board. What it cannot be tuned to is "stretch tuned" like a piano.

In other words, IF a piano was tuned pure ET across ALL octaves AND a steel guitar was tuned straight ET, then all notes between the two would be the same (assuming no cabinet drop, etc).

However, IF a piano is tuned straight ET across all octaves, a strange phenomenon occurs. Every lower octave below middle C would sound progressively sharper and every octave above middle C would sound progessively flatter in respect to the steel guitar tuned straight ET.

In order to make a piano sound as though it was tuned straight ET across all octaves, it is necessary to "stretch" tune it. So it becomes a sound perception thing rather than a mathematical, or physical thing. IE, a stretch tuned piano SOUNDS like it is tune straight ET across all octaves. A piano tuned straight ET does NOT sound like it is tuned ET across all octaves.

It is theorised by many piano experts that this is primarily due to the strings NOT being the same length. So in the case of a steel guitar, the strings are all the same length.

So the phenomenon does not exist in the steel guitar. Thus a steel guitar tuned straigh ET WILL sound like a piano note for note (assuming no cabinet drop), IF the piano is stretch tuned. If the piano is tuned straight ET, then a steel guitar tuned straight ET, will only sound in perfect tune with the piano in the middle C octave.

Octaves higher and the steel will sound sharp to the piano and octaves lower the steel guitar will sound flat to the piano.

For some statistics and more in depth reading about "stretch piano tuning", click on the link below, then click on "APPS" in the list, then click on "The Equal tempered scale and some peculiarities of piano tuning".
http://www.precisionstrobe.com/

In a harmonized scale, is the whole IIIm chord flat 5 cents to "sound right"?

EJL

Jeff

With due respect, No matter how much is read on this subject it still comes down to this.

The steel, bass, and guitar, as well as ALL stringed instruments cannot stretch tune all of the octaves to a piano tuned at (ET or whatever one calls it) without some kind of adjustable bridge to tune the instruments intonation.

The steel guitar is the only stringed instrument in the band which can not tune its fretboard for correct intonation. The adjustable bridge on all of those other instruments is there to solve this problem? Even Fiddles adjust their bridge to accomodate tuning to the piano. Acoustic instruments have slanted bridges to accomodate this. Some basses have fan frets to better solve this. We have Two straight lines and one scale length for each string which does not help our instrument implement any kind of temperment.

To test out whether this is true or not, take an electric guitar and try tuning it to 440 straight up to the tuner, with the bridge in a perfectly straight line like our changer is. Now listen to how out the notes are to the piano as you go up the neck of the guitar. Until you adjust the individual strings at the bridge to varying scale lengths its impossible to accurately implement ET on any instrument since ALL pianos ARE stretched tuned.....Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 28 March 2004 at 01:09 AM.]

I believe that even though all stringed instruments have unique sounds, they still all face the same intonation problems brought on by stretch tuning (ET). Do you have some theory that would exempt the pedal steel from ever needing an adjustable bridge for tuning intonation? If so, other than the sound and its capabilities, what makes our instrument any different to its sister, the guitar which has to have different scale lengths to achieve accurate tuning with the piano?

I'm curious to read your thoughts. I respect your input. Although I repectfully disagree with your assumption that having a straight bridge helps our instrument.

I'll have to read this after I get back from Miami this week. We're doing AJ's new CD in the sun and I fly out in the morning.......Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 March 2004 at 08:03 PM.]

I love ya like a brother. But we gotta disagree on the piano. ET is ET. Meaning every A note is a pure even numerical reference to A 440. Up or down. So is every other note across ANY octave.

IE, 27.5, 55, 110, 220, 440, 880, 1760, 3520, etc, etc. Those are ET numbers. Pianos shift away from this below 440 and above 440.

Stretch tuning is NOT ET. ET is NOT stretch tuning. Stretch tuning is an anomaly in tuning that must be done in order for a piano to sound in tune to ET.

If you read the link I suggested, the author makes this very clear. Shows pictures and graphs on how a piano is stretched away from ET below middle C octaves and above middle C octaves.

He even gives a table showing the amount of shift from ET in cents, when a piano is stretched. The ammount of stretching is not the same on all pianos. But his chart is one of the more common ones.

Again, ET is NOT stretch tuning, and stretch tuning is NOT ET. Pianos MUST be stretched in order to sound ET. A steel guitar is easily tuned straight ET.

But it can NOT be stretch tuned with our present changers. In fact it cannot be stretch tuned like a piano in any case, since a piano has separate strings for EVERY note in every octave.

Because of this, there is NO way any guitar or other stringed instrument like the steel guitar could ever be stretch tuned like a piano.

Jeff, in tuning the beats out, you first have to realize, it is not possible between all notes in a scale. But those that you can tune the beats out, you can use the following:

1. Tune the E's (E9th) and C's (C6) to a reference note or 442.5 as Jeff Newman recommends.

2. Tune the 5ths to the roots using harmonics for no beats at the 12th and 17th frets. Then tune the octaves of the 5ths for no beats.

3. Tune the 4ths for no beats using harmonics at the 17th and 24th frets. Tune the octaves of the 4ths for no beats.

3. Tune the 3rds for no beats with the 5ths by harmonics at the 5th and 4th frets. Then tune the octaves of the 3rds for no beats.

Again, there are some combinations that cannot be tuned for no beats. In some cases this is good such as the D on the 9th string. Some tune it for no beats as a 4th with the B pedal A note.

But it will beat as a 3rd with the open B notes. But this is good. The beat in this case is what gives a 7th that rich tension that makes them "dominant".

Also, it is not possible to tune the beats out of strings 1 and 7 WITH and without pedals, UNLESS you use compensators.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 27 March 2004 at 08:07 PM.]

I hope your not mad. Your author source does not tune the pianos I record with......James Arledge does. And he tunes them in most of the main studios to the numbers I mentioned above and those numbers are his, not mine.

I have misslead you if You perceived I felt that a PSG did not need some intonation correction.

Also the reason for an adjustable bridge on a regular guitar is NOT for stretch tuning. Rather it is to compensate for the fact that when a guitar player presses the strings down on the strings, he is stretching is stretching the strings causing them to go sharp. This sharping varies with string gauge, thus the reason for the adjustable bridge.

On a steel guitar we have a similar scenario with bar pressure. But we have a built in aid, we can shift the bar to overcome most intonation problems as a result of bar pressure.

Again the adjustable bridge and stretch tuning on the piano have nothing in common as far as I have read and studied.

But let me digress dear friend, because I am on to something that just may tie all this together and bring us even closer.

As you are probably aware, I own an Excel. And the Excel's changer actually changes the string's scale when raising OR lowering. Before I bought the guitar I was sooooooo very concerned this would cause intonation problems, I had Bill Stafford and others to make tests for me.

The tests came back negative. I called Tom Brumley and he verified the test. He said the same thing Bill Stafford had said. "I know it seems like it should cause intonation problems, but I cannot hear it." Incidently he owns the Anapeg. But essentially the two changers are identical in how they change pitch.

After I purchased the guitar, I was still skeptical. But believe it or not, try as I may I too can NOT hear it.

Now consider this. The amount of movement at the changer for the high G# to A string is almost an 1/8 of and inch!

Other pulled strings move a lot also. Now WHY does this not cause an intonation problem up and down the neck that we can hear?

Well I have thought about it a lot. And I just may have the answer. And it ties into the piano stretch tuning scenario.

Is it possible that the changer moving horizonatally when one or more strings is raised (or lowered), is actually aiding intonation; INSTEAD of hurting it?

I am not sure. But it sure is an interesting question. And IF true, it may mean that this type of changer has a second wonderful attribute. The first being it simply does NOT break strings. EVER

Love you friend, and as always, may Jesus continue to bless your awesome talents,

Stretching the Musical SCALE

Here's an excerpt:

quote:

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However, it turns out that stretching of the tone scale is very common in musical performance. Solo instruments such as the wind and string families, as well as singers, tend to play sharp in the high pitch region. And in the orchestra the bass string players are often advised to avoid tuning their instruments sharp but instead rather to tune slightly flat. These tendencies are clearly visible in the results of statistical frequency measurements on solo performances by expert players on the violin, flute, and oboe (Fransson et al. 1970a). Although these instruments produce truly harmonic complex tones, a stretch of the tone scale was found that resembles that of the piano - with the only exception that even the middle octaves were not unstretched. So, in fact, the aforementioned non-stretched keyboard instruments (the organs) turn out to be the exception rather than the rule.

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On the E neck play strings 6 and 4. As you get up the neck past the 15th fret it becomes nessisary to slightly slant the bar to stay in tune. Switch your plain string to a wound or vice-versa and repeat. You will find that the slant is now going the other way.

....which brings another question because I know nothing about accordians: Are accordians not tunable?

Now that I am playing steel some, I seem to find it hard to get in tune with the guitar players. Are the tuners they are using sensing the octave and tuning to a piano "streach" tuning, or is it straight ET across the octaves? And how does that effect what you tune a steel to?

I did switch to the chart on Jeff's page and that seemed to help but it still is not perfect. What part of that is me, we'll have to see! ;-)

I have never tried what you described. But I will think about that one and maybe put it through the test.

This I do know, and other players who own guitars with this type of changer (including myself), do not hear any intonation problems.

Now there may be some. And it is highly conceivable that using high quality, critically calibrated measuring equipment, that one could find some intonation problems.

It is also possible that a Paul Franklin or Buddy Emmons might sit down to my guitar and say, "ahah, I hear some intonation problems between these two strings at these frets that I do NOT hear on my common bridge changer".

But as the other players (who own one of these guitars) discovered and then I discovered, it has not manifested itself at any time since I have been playing from what I hear. And surely I would think it would have. Yet it has not happened.

This is why I feel this type changer may be helping "intonation" problems rather than contributing to them.

In thinking about piano "stretch tuning", we are told that one of the prime reasons they stretch tune is the length of the strings are not consistent in a piano. IE, different length strings tuned to precise octaves sound OUT of tune to most listeners.

By stretching them progressively flatter below middle see and stretching them progressiveyly sharper above middle C, these "shifted octaves" then sound harmonically pure to the listener. So this might indeed parallel (IMO) what is happening in these two changers. I am not sure of course.

It is at least interesting to think about. Here is one of the things that keeps hitting me. There are few ears on this earth finer than Tom Brumley's. And yet he cannot hear (his words) any intonation problems on either of his Anapegs.

That is good enough for me.

Thanks for bringing it up Richard,

On (comparatively) skinny little steel guitar strings, the overtones do not ring perceptably sharp. Therefore there is no need for stretch tuning to get the instrument to get its octaves true.

It seems like there's little to be gained by tuning a PSG's octaves out of tune to chase a piano's stretched tuning.

-GV

[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 29 March 2004 at 10:56 AM.]

quote:

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I thought stretch tuning was required on a piano because the overtones were sharp due to the imperfect vibrations of strings of such thickness. Stretch tuning allows a piano to play in tune with itself.

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